Most Disturbing Moment/Event (SPOiLERS!!!)

[Eulalia]

The wolf-girl rocks. She seems to still have some kindness there, such as when she gives Sam the last of her baked clams.

On the Sansa side, the process of her getting all "Manchurian Candidate" is disturbing, and her being the recipient of Joffrey's cruelty (at the hands of knights) and Cersei's weird coaching. The incident where Cersei tells her that Illyn Payne is under orders to kill the ladies if King's Landing falls is special--just when she is feeling hopeful that her tormentor's might be removed.

 

[Mesanna]

I agree that Arya rocks! The killing of Dareon wasn't quite as black and white as the others, but - in defence of Arya - she grew up with the knowledge that deserting the Night Watch meant death, and I think she justified her actions somewhat with that. Also, I think there was a certain element of "proving" herself to her new masters. I rather think the going blind thing was a punishment/lesson from them to teach her not to jump the gun.

The contrast between Arya and Sansa's fates is quite interesting. Arya has gone out alone and fought for survival, and did whatever was necessary. She's tough and resourceful and I love her for that. Sansa, for the longest time, was more meekly accepting of her treatment. OK she didn't like it but somehow I couldn't see Arya sitting about waiting for someone else to rescue her the way Sansa did. (In reality, if Arya had been captured in Kings Landing, she'd probably be dead now after talking back to Joff once too often). Sansa is finally starting to assert herself, but she's more or less had to be dragged every step of the way. I actually find the way Joff treated Sansa more shocking than anything Arya has done. GRRM is so very good at creating characters full of shades of grey, but not with Joff. He's just the cartoon baddie that you love to hate. I was glad glad glad when he choked to death!

 

[The Imp]

I agree that Arya rocks! The killing of Dareon wasn't quite as black and white as the others, but - in defence of Arya - she grew up with the knowledge that deserting the Night Watch meant death, and I think she justified her actions somewhat with that. Also, I think there was a certain element of "proving" herself to her new masters. I rather think the going blind thing was a punishment/lesson from them to teach her not to jump the gun.

The contrast between Arya and Sansa's fates is quite interesting. Arya has gone out alone and fought for survival, and did whatever was necessary. She's tough and resourceful and I love her for that. Sansa, for the longest time, was more meekly accepting of her treatment. OK she didn't like it but somehow I couldn't see Arya sitting about waiting for someone else to rescue her the way Sansa did. (In reality, if Arya had been captured in Kings Landing, she'd probably be dead now after talking back to Joff once too often). Sansa is finally starting to assert herself, but she's more or less had to be dragged every step of the way. I actually find the way Joff treated Sansa more shocking than anything Arya has done. GRRM is so very good at creating characters full of shades of grey, but not with Joff. He's just the cartoon baddie that you love to hate. I was glad glad glad when he choked to death!

Thank you for typing all of that. i would have said the same things.

Arya was her father's son, Sansa her mother's daughter. Each seemed to inherit the traits that made each of them strong in their own way. It would make sense that Sansa would take loger to "amture' becuase what she got from her mom was more intellectual while Arya got , what can i call it? Physicality? Bravery? Survival instincts? i'm not sure.

The thought just came to me that Arya and her adventures has been in part a retelling of Lord of the Flies

 

[Eulalia]

Imp, I think your on to something with the Lord of the Flies/Game of Thrones. The whole book is disturbing! Spoilers coming.

Sansa has some shades of grey, too. The passivity is hard to tolerate, but in the days that this book is inspired by, guile, diplomacy, support and alliances were probably the actual ways that a noble woman could survive. Sansa has her brave moments--like trying to save her father, saving Ser Dontos, rallying the frightened women of King's Landing and dissing Joffrey with some sly remarks. She learns to dissemble but privately she is thinking (until my brother Robb kicks your butt!). She has not really used her sexuality deliberately yet, but she does benefit from her cuteness.

Arya is, what... plucky, loyal, courageous, kind, generous, a leader, independent, fair, egalitarian, observent, active, persistent, clever, realistic?

She does get saved by people, too, though. She requires the Hound to hit her over the head to stop her from destruction at the Red Wedding. Then Yoren also saves her at Ned's execution.

I suppose it is disturbing (I'm with you Mesanna) to have a writer cause me to be glad, glad, glad when Joffrey chokes. Yessss! (hand pump)

 

[devilsgrin]

Thank you for typing all of that. i would have said the same things.

Arya was her father's son, Sansa her mother's daughter. Each seemed to inherit the traits that made each of them strong in their own way. It would make sense that Sansa would take loger to "amture' becuase what she got from her mom was more intellectual while Arya got , what can i call it? Physicality? Bravery? Survival instincts? i'm not sure.

The thought just came to me that Arya and her adventures has been in part a retelling of Lord of the Flies

i certainly agree with Arya inheriting more Stark qualities than Tully, and Sansa the opposite. I don't think it would necessarily make Sansa's road to maturity take longer though. Its the circumstances that have forced Arya into the murderer she is. Sansa's circumstances are far more domestically abusive than the outright, brutality that Arya has seen (and committed).
I also don't think Arya is particularly "brave" as such. she's certainly no coward, indeed, so far we've seen NONE of the Stark-spawn are remotely craven. But Arya's supposed bravery, for me, seems to come from the ignorance to consequence that her being a child gives her. Arya has fire, and determination most definitely. I think these are her key personality traits - according to Ned, they are Lyanna traits. Though we know that at least Lyanna was still lady-like enough to catch Robert's and Rhaegar's eye. Sansa is in no way less "brave" than Arya, but their personalities are so completely opposite, and their ideals along with them, that Sansa's bravery is in her ability to survive a political viper's nest (in which Arya would be doomed). She survives King's Landing, she even manages to survive her crazed Aunt at the Eyrie - she gets help yes... but so does Arya - she'd be dead if not for Yoren and the Hound - but Sansa, as Catelyn's daughter used Her mothers (and Septa Mordane's) lessons to survive. propriety and good manners kept Sansa alive as much as Arya's Needle (and Syrio's lessons) did for her.

 

[Mesanna]

The comparison that Sansa = Tully and Arya = Stark is bang on. Sansa is her mother's daughter through and through. I seem to recall a comment from Catelyn where she says Arya is a trial (or words to that effect). I always thought that was a terrible thing for a mother to say. Surely you should accept your children for what they are? However, I digress.

Perhaps I'm being unfair in saying in my previous post that Sansa meekly accepts her treatment. Eulalia is right when she says that this is how Sansa was raised (that quote about "A lady's courtesy is her armour" perfectly summarises it). Confrontation just isn't in Sansa's nature - unlike Arya. The point Devilsgrin makes that Sansa manages to survive in Kings Landing, whereas Arya probably wouldn't, is valid. And, conversely, I doubt Sansa would survive if she had to take the path Arya has taken. I suppose I'm just a bit hard on Sansa because I dislike her passivity. I'll take Arya's bolshieness every time

Finally, it will be interesting to see if Sansa starts to use her sexuality to her advantage in future books. After all, she learnt from the best - Cersei Lannister.

 

[The Imp]

The comparison that Sansa = Tully and Arya = Stark is bang on. Sansa is her mother's daughter through and through. I seem to recall a comment from Catelyn where she says Arya is a trial (or words to that effect). I always thought that was a terrible thing for a mother to say. Surely you should accept your children for what they are? However, I digress.

Perhaps I'm being unfair in saying in my previous post that Sansa meekly accepts her treatment. Eulalia is right when she says that this is how Sansa was raised (that quote about "A lady's courtesy is her armour" perfectly summarises it). Confrontation just isn't in Sansa's nature - unlike Arya. The point Devilsgrin makes that Sansa manages to survive in Kings Landing, whereas Arya probably wouldn't, is valid. And, conversely, I doubt Sansa would survive if she had to take the path Arya has taken. I suppose I'm just a bit hard on Sansa because I dislike her passivity. I'll take Arya's bolshieness every time

Finally, it will be interesting to see if Sansa starts to use her sexuality to her advantage in future books. After all, she learnt from the best - Cersei Lannister.

When Cat was told by Cleos Frey that he had only seen Sansa at court her first thought was that she might be dead, but that was quickly folloowed by they had her hidden away somehere becuase she would be so difficult to control.

I agree that Sansa could have never suirvived what Arya did. Assuming for a second that she was smuggled out of King's landing along with Arya, she would have been totally defenseless, her only "armor" being useless with men such as Gregor, and either returned to KL or raped and murdered. It wouldn't have been pretty. Her road in the future is far more interesting. You mention that she was taught about how to be sexual by Cersei. Maybe, but for certain, she is quickly learning how to be manipulative and Machiavellian from Littlefinger, and as we all know, he's a master. I beleive that Sansa will be a force to be dealt with, and OMG, can this possibly be??

Will SHE be the younger and prettier one that Maggy the Frog spoke of?

 

[Mesanna]

When I said Sansa had learned to be sexual from Cersei, to be honest, I really meant on a sub-conscious level. I think Sansa is still a little too young to be aware of her charms, but as she grows older (and learns to manipulate people from Littlefinger), she will recall how Cersei could wind certain men around her finger and won't be afraid to do this too. I found Sansa annoying and a little pathetic through the first couple of books, but I agree she is definitely becoming more interesting now. I want so much to see her assert herself and take control of her situation (and hopefully beat Littlefinger at his own game too).

Sansa could well be the younger, prettier queen, but I think my money is still on Dany for that. I have this (admittedly batshit crazy) notion of Dany and Jaime getting together. I know the chances of that are very small, but hey you never know! Dany, in taking Jaime and the Kingdom, really would rob Cersei of everything she has.

 

[The Imp]

When I said Sansa had learned to be sexual from Cersei, to be honest, I really meant on a sub-conscious level. I think Sansa is still a little too young to be aware of her charms, but as she grows older (and learns to manipulate people from Littlefinger), she will recall how Cersei could wind certain men around her finger and won't be afraid to do this too. I found Sansa annoying and a little pathetic through the first couple of books, but I agree she is definitely becoming more interesting now. I want so much to see her assert herself and take control of her situation (and hopefully beat Littlefinger at his own game too).

Sansa could well be the younger, prettier queen, but I think my money is still on Dany for that. I have this (admittedly batshit crazy) notion of Dany and Jaime getting together. I know the chances of that are very small, but hey you never know! Dany, in taking Jaime and the Kingdom, really would rob Cersei of everything she has.

I knew what you meant when you said that. I did NOT think you implied that Cersei had Sansa hide in a closet and watch as she and one of the Kettleblacks were................... you get the idea.

Dany and Jaime? I'd need to hear more about how that could come to be before commenting.

 

[No One]

I want so much to see her assert herself and take control of her situation (and hopefully beat Littlefinger at his own game too).

Sansa could well be the younger, prettier queen, but I think my money is still on Dany for that. I have this (admittedly batshit crazy) notion of Dany and Jaime getting together. I know the chances of that are very small, but hey you never know! Dany, in taking Jaime and the Kingdom, really would rob Cersei of everything she has.

On the first point I think Sansa has got a long way to go before topping Littlefinger at his own game, even if she does have the leverage of his affection for her.

In any case, if she's real smart, she'd realise that Littlefinger could be an extremely valuable ally. Of course, if she finds out his part in Ned's betrayal then she'd have herself a real motive for wanting revenge, but then she was just as culpable in Ned's downfall, which would make her something of a hypocrite.

As to the second point, I can only agree with your own appraisal . I can't see that happening (which, of course, means nothing). My own early notions with regard to Arya - even before she was on the path to becoming a Faceless Man/Woman - was that she'd be the death of Dany. Don't ask me why. Or, in a far worse scenario, Jon. Now that would be disturbing.

 

[The Imp]

As to the second point, I can only agree with your own appraisal . I can't see that happening (which, of course, means nothing). My own early notions with regard to Arya - even before she was on the path to becoming a Faceless Man/Woman - was that she'd be the death of Dany. Don't ask me why. Or, in a far worse scenario, Jon. Now that would be disturbing.

The more i read and re-read the books the more I beleive that Arya is the "truest" Stark of all the Stark children. She's her father's daughter, and the Stark children will be reunited, as will their wolves, though not necessarily together at first. I think the leader of the wolves will be Nymeria. I don't think that GRRM chose the name Summer randomly. The ultimate battle will be between Fire and Ice- Dany, plus Stannis, plus the Starks vs the forces of the North (Others) OR Dany (Fire) vs. The Starks (Ice), which would be more in line with The War of the Roses.

 

[No One]

Imp - I'm inclined to agree regarding Arya as the truest Stark (putting aside the question of how deeply her Faceless Man training goes).

But I'm intrigued by the idea of Dany vs Starks - what would you suppose that means for Dany and Jon? If (and I use the word loosely) Jon is half Targaryan, which side do you think he'd take? I'm assuming Starks? But what would that mean regarding the three heads of the Dragon?

So many questions...

 

[Tansy]

I agree that naming Bran's wolf Summer is no coincidence, I think Bran is going to be instrumental in discovering the secrets of the others

 

[The Imp]

Imp - I'm inclined to agree regarding Arya as the truest Stark (putting aside the question of how deeply her Faceless Man training goes).

But I'm intrigued by the idea of Dany vs Starks - what would you suppose that means for Dany and Jon? If (and I use the word loosely) Jon is half Targaryan, which side do you think he'd take? I'm assuming Starks? But what would that mean regarding the three heads of the Dragon?

So many questions...

Perhaps it will be Starks vs Dany THEn a final showdown with them inited against The Others. My main rasoning for saying this is Starks representing Ice and Dany Fire. Maybe Jon is the inification of those two, and that's how it's resolved

I need to email this to GRRM asap

 

[Quick Ben]

I still maintain that Bran is "the man" to lead the Starks back to their glory, he should rule Winterfell. It's telling we haven't heard from him at all since Storm of Swords I (I think), who knows what he's gotten up to with one-eyed crow.

As for Sansa, as long as her and Littlefinger don't have sex I'm happy with the storyline and it's progress. Littlefinger is a creepy ******* though.

 

[devilsgrin]

well Bran IS the heir to Winterfell afterall... he should end up the Lord of a rebuilt Winterfell... perhaps him being named Brandon wasn't just a coincidence either... Brandon the Builder is perhaps the most famous of the figures from the Age of Heroes - we've yet to actually hear any of the acts of Lann the Clever, aside from swindling Casterley rock from the Casterley familty, and only one story about Daeron, the first Storm King. Brandon the builder built Winterfell, The Wall, was instrumental in the construction of Storm's End... perhaps BtB was as much a skinchanger as Bran is too... magic was far more active in the world back then, and The Wall and Storm's End in particular are reputed to be woven with spells of protection and endurance - into the very mortar itself (at least for Storm's End).

I disagree that Arya is necessarily the Truest of the Starks. Jon, whether half targ or not, is a MUCH truer Stark. Robb may have looked the Tully, but he was a true Stark. Bran is rather Stark too, Rickon is too young to determine, and we haven't seen him for three books now.
Arya is a Stark, no question, but she's certainly not honourable like a Stark. She's no Leader of Men as all Starks are - see Ned, Robb, Jon, Benjen even, all possess the air of command that a Stark must have. Regardless of gender, authority is as much a personality trait as a learned skill or title-based expectation.

 

[The Imp]

well Bran IS the heir to Winterfell afterall... he should end up the Lord of a rebuilt Winterfell... perhaps him being named Brandon wasn't just a coincidence either... Brandon the Builder is perhaps the most famous of the figures from the Age of Heroes - we've yet to actually hear any of the acts of Lann the Clever, aside from swindling Casterley rock from the Casterley familty, and only one story about Daeron, the first Storm King. Brandon the builder built Winterfell, The Wall, was instrumental in the construction of Storm's End... perhaps BtB was as much a skinchanger as Bran is too... magic was far more active in the world back then, and The Wall and Storm's End in particular are reputed to be woven with spells of protection and endurance - into the very mortar itself (at least for Storm's End).

I disagree that Arya is necessarily the Truest of the Starks. Jon, whether half targ or not, is a MUCH truer Stark. Robb may have looked the Tully, but he was a true Stark. Bran is rather Stark too, Rickon is too young to determine, and we haven't seen him for three books now.
Arya is a Stark, no question, but she's certainly not honourable like a Stark. She's no Leader of Men as all Starks are - see Ned, Robb, Jon, Benjen even, all possess the air of command that a Stark must have. Regardless of gender, authority is as much a personality trait as a learned skill or title-based expectation.

The walls of Storm's End are not just reputed to have magic in them, they do, as was evidenced when Davos had to smuggle Melisandre under its; walls, and Melisandre specifically asks if they are past the wall yet, needing to know so she can "birth" her demon. As for the Wall, I seem to remeber protections against being able to pass under it, also magic being used in the actual building of it,

As for the "truest" Stark, I meant that more figuratively than literally. Robb, Bran, Rickon and Sansa all looked like Cat, and Jon is at best a ******* and at worst not a STark at all, or if he is, maybe it's on his mother's side. I understand that all of the children have traits that one would assoicate with being a Stark.

 

[devilsgrin]

As for the "truest" Stark, I meant that more figuratively than literally. Robb, Bran, Rickon and Sansa all looked like Cat, and Jon is at best a ******* and at worst not a STark at all, or if he is, maybe it's on his mother's side. I understand that all of the children have traits that one would assoicate with being a Stark.

i see. you mean that at least in appearance, Arya is the truest Stark of Ned's true-born children. And i'd agree with that. Jon, whether he's Rhaegar's son with Lyanna, or Ned's son with Ashara Dayne or some random camp-follower (hmmm of the two options for a Ned fathered Jon... Ashara Dayne fits better than some random peasant), is still half Stark... and he looks it too - much to Cat's lament.

 

[Mesanna]

I love to speculate on the "big picture" of where the series is going, and a showdown between Fire and Ice has surely got to figure prominently. I've wondered if this means The Others v Melisandre's Fire God, or, of course, Starks as Ice vs Dany as Fire. If the Fire God is involved, does that mean that He is the "good guy"? (Personally, I'm not convinced Mel and her god are on the good side). I've read some speculation that perhaps The Others aren't intrinsically evil, just misunderstood(!), though not sure that I buy that either. Or is it a battle of supreme beings that care little for the folks of Westeros? I just can't decide.

I like this idea that Bran's wolf's name is significant. I hadn't really thought too much about that before, but he did name him after he woke up from his coma and his first experience with the Three-Eyed Crow (I believe). Does anyone have any theories about who the Three-Eyed Crow actually is? Is he/she/it connected to The Others in any way, or at war with them. I'd be interested to hear what everyone else thinks.

 

[The Imp]

i see. you mean that at least in appearance, Arya is the truest Stark of Ned's true-born children. And i'd agree with that. Jon, whether he's Rhaegar's son with Lyanna, or Ned's son with Ashara Dayne or some random camp-follower (hmmm of the two options for a Ned fathered Jon... Ashara Dayne fits better than some random peasant), is still half Stark... and he looks it too - much to Cat's lament.

I can't bring myself to believe that ned would abandon his personal code of honor and father a bastrd. The R+L=J theory makes much more sense to be, and has more interesting implications for the storyline. If Jon is half Targ that almost guaranteees an alliance with Dany.