Most Disturbing Moment/Event (SPOiLERS!!!)

[The Imp]

Lysa Arryn and her son are incredibly disturbing.

I knew a woman, it was the cousin of my girlfirend at the time, that was still breastfeeding her son at age 6. That was going to be one very warped kid.

VERY disturbing

 

[Clansman]

I knew a woman, it was the cousin of my girlfirend at the time, that was still breastfeeding her son at age 6. That was going to be one very warped kid.

VERY disturbing

Grounds for referral to child welfare authorities, that. Talk about causing "emotional or psychological harm". More like one very warped mother.

 

[Young stormlord]

Grounds for referral to child welfare authorities, that. Talk about causing "emotional or psychological harm". More like one very warped mother.

I don't think so... allaitement . Read it until the end, it turns out breastfeeding is primitive way of birth control.

Also, you darn westerners, against everything natural. Although, six year old IS a bit creepy...

 

[soulsinging]

What Jaime did to Bran is up there on the list for me. Very cold. Very brutal. Unforgivable, even as I warmed up to this character along the way.

Are you sure you didn't warm up to Jaime just because the more Bran chapters we had to read the more we kind of wished Jaime had succeeded?

 

[Mag the Mighty]

Are you sure you didn't warm up to Jaime just because the more Bran chapters we had to read the more we kind of wished Jaime had succeeded?

Harsh!

 

[Mesanna]

(Snipped)

Rape, murder, attempted murder, assault, torture, robbery...

Rape, murder, attempted murder, assault, torture, robbery, maiming, cannibalism...

Murder, attempted murder, attempted infanticide, attempted fratricide, patricide, incest, treason...

Attempted murder, threatened infanticide, pedophilia

Murder, seduction, lies, murder, rape, treason, murder, and more murder.

Lechery, lust, treason, murder, murder, murder...

Remind me again why I like these books?

 

[hadd]

From all the situations i think i most "lived into" the part where Biter fell onto Brienne and what happened there...I was seriously appalled and well i couldn't sleep after reading that (so i read the book on till i fell asleep haha).

 

[TK-421]

SPOILERS!!!

Brienne's end.

Jumping to conclusions, Boaz?

I know, I know. That's a discussion for another forum that has already happened.

Here's a disturbing moment: Sam and Gilly.

 

[The Imp]

Grounds for referral to child welfare authorities, that. Talk about causing "emotional or psychological harm". More like one very warped mother.

She was actually a very normal person in every area of her life, other than this issue with her son. I'm not sure that she was even doing anything that could result in any "sanction" by a child protective agency. This was in New York CIty btw.

I'm still in contact with my ex-girlfirend, we speak via IM occasionally, but I'm almost afraid to ask her how long this went on for.

 

[The Imp]

I'll add varys telling the story of how he was "cut". I'm not sure I beleive the story to be true because I have my doubts that he's really a eunuch, but it's a really horrible story anyway

 

[Boaz]

Remind me again why I like these books?

Treason, lust, avarice.... murder.

Jumping to conclusions, Boaz?

I always try and stick to my strengths.

Oh, the first really disturbing moment was when it occurred to me that I really felt sorry for Tyrion. He may not be a villain, but he's not a nice guy. And another disturbing moment was when I realized that Jaime was my favorite character. His crimes are horrendous!

 

[Mesanna]

Hmm, Jaime is my favourite character too. I guess I *do* actually enjoy "treason, lust, avarice and murder" (and apparently incest too!)

Now why would feeling sorry for Tyrion be disturbing? I liked Tyrion from the start and do genuinely feel sympathetic towards him. Poor lamb hasn't had a particularly easy life (at least, not by Lannister standards). I just can't help rooting for him no matter what he does (it's that whole underdog thing). I was punching the air and shouting "Yes" when he offed Tywin, but then when I calmed down, I realised Tyrion would now have to live with the guilt and shame of kinslaying. It seems that even when he wins, he loses.

 

[The Imp]

Hmm, Jaime is my favourite character too. I guess I *do* actually enjoy "treason, lust, avarice and murder" (and apparently incest too!)

Now why would feeling sorry for Tyrion be disturbing? I liked Tyrion from the start and do genuinely feel sympathetic towards him. Poor lamb hasn't had a particularly easy life (at least, not by Lannister standards). I just can't help rooting for him no matter what he does (it's that whole underdog thing). I was punching the air and shouting "Yes" when he offed Tywin, but then when I calmed down, I realised Tyrion would now have to live with the guilt and shame of kinslaying. It seems that even when he wins, he loses.

Tyrion had once thought to himself that he would like to be able to hire a Faceless Man to kill his sister, but then thought that a kinslayer is cursed by the gods forever. Tyrion's rage over his father bedding his whore got the best of him, or, he learned somehow that Tywin isn't his father. Most likely the former is true.

 

[soulsinging]

I was punching the air and shouting "Yes" when he offed Tywin, but then when I calmed down, I realised Tyrion would now have to live with the guilt and shame of kinslaying. It seems that even when he wins, he loses.

I didn't get the impression he felt much shame or guilt about it, just regret that it was going to cost him. Personally, the only thing I didn't like about Tyrion was his unfailing loyalty to people that didn't deserve it. He's smart enough to know they'll never accpet him and that Cersei is a terrible ruler, but he kept backing them anyway even as they dumped on him constantly.

 

[Mesanna]

Tyrion had once thought to himself that he would like to be able to hire a Faceless Man to kill his sister, but then thought that a kinslayer is cursed by the gods forever. Tyrion's rage over his father bedding his whore got the best of him, or, he learned somehow that Tywin isn't his father. Most likely the former is true.

I don't believe it was just Tywin bedding Shae that sent Tyrion over the edge; it was more the culmination of that whole plotline (though possibly that's what you meant?) Tyrion is imprisoned, disowned, under great stress and in fear of his life. Though his brother releases him, he discovers the truth about Tysha, the defining love of his life. He then stumbles across his hypocrite of a father in bed with - not just any whore (bad enough) - but HIS (lying, scheming) whore. I think anyone would be justified in cracking at that point and I cannot fault Tyrion for his actions, regardless if this makes him an accursed kinslayer.

@soulsinging I believe Tyrion will feel shame and guilt at what he has done, even if he didn't show it at the time. Survival, which necessitated a quick getaway, was the top priority. Plenty time afterwards for gnawing at the wound, and, as Imp says, he has already indicated that he knows kinslaying is evil.

**SLIGHT SPOILER** I haven't read Tyrion's Dance with Dragons chapter, but I've skimmed over a few forum comments and I believe he's drunk most of the time?? This doesn't sound like someone who is comfortable with himself or his actions.

Finally, I'm 100% certain Tyrion is Tywin's son. He's not a Targ. (Just thought I'd throw petrol on the flames there!)

 

[The Imp]

I don't believe it was just Tywin bedding Shae that sent Tyrion over the edge; it was more the culmination of that whole plotline (though possibly that's what you meant?) Tyrion is imprisoned, disowned, under great stress and in fear of his life. Though his brother releases him, he discovers the truth about Tysha, the defining love of his life. He then stumbles across his hypocrite of a father in bed with - not just any whore (bad enough) - but HIS (lying, scheming) whore. I think anyone would be justified in cracking at that point and I cannot fault Tyrion for his actions, regardless if this makes him an accursed kinslayer.

@soulsinging I believe Tyrion will feel shame and guilt at what he has done, even if he didn't show it at the time. Survival, which necessitated a quick getaway, was the top priority. Plenty time afterwards for gnawing at the wound, and, as Imp says, he has already indicated that he knows kinslaying is evil.

**SLIGHT SPOILER** I haven't read Tyrion's Dance with Dragons chapter, but I've skimmed over a few forum comments and I believe he's drunk most of the time?? This doesn't sound like someone who is comfortable with himself or his actions.

Finally, I'm 100% certain Tyrion is Tywin's son. He's not a Targ. (Just thought I'd throw petrol on the flames there!)

I don't think he's a Targ either, but there are those who do, and with GRRM you never know.

I agree that Tyrion was totally justified, or at least had a good excuse, for killing his father, and I agree that seeing his father with Shae was the final straw after many that had already fallen. He was always kind of schixophrenic about her, which probably added to the fury. Part of him knew she was a whore that only "loved him" for his coin, but another part of him beleived that she loved him, maybe even after she betrayed him at his trial.

 

[Mesanna]

I don't think he's a Targ either, but there are those who do, and with GRRM you never know.

I agree that Tyrion was totally justified, or at least had a good excuse, for killing his father, and I agree that seeing his father with Shae was the final straw after many that had already fallen. He was always kind of schixophrenic about her, which probably added to the fury. Part of him knew she was a whore that only "loved him" for his coin, but another part of him beleived that she loved him, maybe even after she betrayed him at his trial.

And this is why I feel for Tyrion so much. Intellectually, he knows she's a whore and theirs is a business relationship. But emotionally, I think he wants her to love him so badly. He's been despised and mocked all his life and he desperately wants to have someone who cares. It's really quite tragically sad (or possibly I'm just a romantic fool!) It's the same with his family (as Soulsinging says above). Excepting Jaime, they all wish he'd fall off the face of the earth, but he keeps going back to them despite this because he craves their acceptance. Tyrion, on the surface, is a cynical smart-arse, but underneath he just wants to be loved (ah, don't we all!)

 

[No One]

Like most people, I took a shine to Tyrion early on in AGOT after his first meeting with Jon, but all this talk of why we like Tyrion reminds me that there was a point, somewhere in the midst of Clash of Kings, where I almost started dis-liking him.

Not because of anything in his character, but simply because I was beginning to think GRRM was favouring him. While everyone else seemed to be getting nothing but the short end of a spear through the neck or their head on a pike, Tyrion had it relatively easy.

I justified it at the time by telling myself that it was only because no one at KL was taking Tyrion seriously enough to perceive him as a threat, but of course I needn't have worried. Things went downhill rather rapidly after the battle (and an axe to the face).

And just to get this thread ever-so-slighty back on track, I'll throw in Arya's killing of the Bolton guard. And not just the killing either, but the note afterward of the blood on her hands and how the rain would simply wash it away. If I'm right about Arya (and her polar-opposite path to Jaime as a character) that was first real sign of it. I think.

 

[Mesanna]

And just to get this thread ever-so-slighty back on track, I'll throw in Arya's killing of the Bolton guard. And not just the killing either, but the note afterward of the blood on her hands and how the rain would simply wash it away. If I'm right about Arya (and her polar-opposite path to Jaime as a character) that was first real sign of it. I think.

@No One: I haven't read your theories about Arya. Are you saying that as Jaime morphs from bad guy into good guy, Arya transforms from innocent child to evil killer (well, she's pretty much there already). That's interesting! Where can I read more of your theory? If there is a reverse symmetry in their story lines, then I wonder if they will meet up again nearer the end?

For me, Arya's transformation is more heart-breakingly sad than out-and-out shocking. She was just a young girl who had to grow up fast in cruel times, and learned at a very young age that it's a dog eat dog world. In the case of the Bolton guard, I thought she was perhaps trying to distance herself emotionally from what she had done, but this does seem to have become a permanent state of mind for her (which is possibly a good thing if she truly wants to be a Faceless Man).

I personally find the casual violence (like the innkeeper's daughter discussed earlier) more shocking than anything Arya's done. Arya is fighting her own war and she has good reasons for wanting certain persons dead. The Mountain and his like enjoy hurting people just for the hell of it and that is far more frightening.

 

[No One]

@No One: I haven't read your theories about Arya. Are you saying that as Jaime morphs from bad guy into good guy, Arya transforms from innocent child to evil killer (well, she's pretty much there already). That's interesting! Where can I read more of your theory? If there is a reverse symmetry in their story lines, then I wonder if they will meet up again nearer the end?

For me, Arya's transformation is more heart-breakingly sad than out-and-out shocking. She was just a young girl who had to grow up fast in cruel times, and learned at a very young age that it's a dog eat dog world. In the case of the Bolton guard, I thought she was perhaps trying to distance herself emotionally from what she had done, but this does seem to have become a permanent state of mind for her (which is possibly a good thing if she truly wants to be a Faceless Man).

I personally find the casual violence (like the innkeeper's daughter discussed earlier) more shocking than anything Arya's done. Arya is fighting her own war and she has good reasons for wanting certain persons dead. The Mountain and his like enjoy hurting people just for the hell of it and that is far more frightening.

Mesanna - well, it's something I've mentioned a few times, but there's no need to go searching. What you've outlined is very much what I have in mind.

I completely agree also that Arya is a product of her environment (people seem to forget that she was just a very sweet and innocent kid to begin with) and has been, so far, more than justified in her in thoughts and actions (though there's been some debate about her killing of Dareon).

And you're absolutely right that there can't be any comparison between Arya's kills and the torture/mutilation/murder committed by the likes of Gregor, his men, and the many, many others. The instance of the Bolton guard was simply the first point to suggest that Arya may be on a very slippery slope. I am, however, determined to root for the wolf-girl to the bitter end!