I no longer feel obligated to purchase ADWD. Is that wrong?

[soulsinging]

My apologies if my earlier post offended anyone. It wasn't directed at anyone here, no one was quoted or named in my post, and i took care to speak in generalities. It was probably a post that was more a general complaint about the state of things in general than speciically about GRRM's critics in particular. I'll keep it short in the hope that ruffled feathers have been smoothed over.

I figured it was directed more at some of the readers that would likely write reviews on a website that rhymes with blamazon. Still, seemed a good moment to point out my lack of agenda given that I only started the series 3 years ago, only finished AFFC 1.5 ago, and it's not the length of the wait between books that really bothers me.

 

[soulsinging]

I feel as is I should be defending the honor of AFFC, as I know it is undeserving of all the vitriol heaped upon it, but I despair.

P.S. I've said this before, but I'll say it again. I privately suspect that many who dislike AFFC do so because it doesn't focus on the exciting war and combat they so relish in their fiction, and instead focuses on politics, intrigue, and the effects of the war on the people of Westeros, which is something they have little patience, and perhaps the attention span, for. In an epic so wide and vast, a change of focus is inevitable, and indeed desired. Trying to narrate the entire thing from Winterfell, or a war camp, would have been impossible.

I wouldn't call my reaction vitriol so much as alarm. And I've plenty of patience for politics... my favorite character is Baelish and I actually greatly enjoyed Sansa's chapters. I'll admit Brienne's bored me to tears and were too long by 100 pages... more relevant plot development occurred in half the number of pages when she was traveling with Jaime and nothing Brienne's POV covered hadn't already been seen through Arya's eyes.

But it wasn't so much the absence of Tyrion et al as the introduction of new characters. In 1-3, Davos was sufficient to give us a thoroughly immersive look at what was going on in Stannis' realm, and Brienne gave us Renly. In AFFC it takes two POV's for the Ironborn and I can't even remember how many for Dorne (3? 4?). To me, that indicates a waning discipline and self-editing, especially since the duplication added little in the way of additional perspective or unique characterization. Whereas before he set up Jaime well by making us root for Eddard and then showing the man behind the monster much later, here he seemed to throw them all at the wall and hoped something stuck, which cost in terms of tension and intriguing realizations. Rather than showing us complicated motives and the bias of perspective, he just told us. It made the politics flat out boring, whereas before they were fascinating.

I could also just as easily say I suspect those who defend and praise AFFC do so not because the book merits it, but because they are loyal to GRRM and feel he can still pull it together and end the series strong. If he recovers and reaches the heights of 1-3, then this book's defenders can be vindicated and claim the apparent drop off was simply the difficulty of middle book syndrome.

 

[The Imp]

I could also just as easily say I suspect those who defend and praise AFFC do so not because the book merits it, but because they are loyal to GRRM and feel he can still pull it together and end the series strong. If he recovers and reaches the heights of 1-3, then this book's defenders can be vindicated and claim the apparent drop off was simply the difficulty of middle book syndrome.

I think you're being narrow in your focus and simplistic in the way that you dismiss "defenders" of AFFC. You're making the argument that anyone who liked AFFC not based on merit but rather, based on some sort of loyalty to GRRM, and because the book did not live up to your expectations, the same must hold true for everyone else who read it.

I'll preface the following by saying that I'm legally blind and reading print books isn't a good option for me. I can do it, but I get headaches because of the glasses that i have to wear, so I almost exclusively do audio books. Listening to a book takes a while, and one of GRRM's takes a long while. I've read AFFC at least 3 times, possibly 4. I've lost track. I'm working my way through another re-read at the moment, and will try to time finishing AFFC to closely coincide with the publication date of ADWD. Having said that, I'll also say that I consider my life choices, and I have enough life experience to know that my choices are very simple- Do the things that make me happy, or at least things that have a good chance to, or knowingly waste time, which i find is passing more quickly with each year, and is becoming an increasingly precious commodity.

I didn't read AFFC because I'm loyal to GRRM. The people that I know and know of that have done multiple re-reads of this series, some of whom you'll find on this board, didn't do so either. You go to your child's crappy school play every night that it runs because of a sense of loyalty. You don't re-read a huge book that was disappointing, lost it's way, has crappy characters, etc. out of a sense of loyalty or because you hope the next book(s) will be better and return to the quality of the earlier books. you just don't.

For the new people, If you haven't taken the time to puruse some of the topic threads on this forum you should do so. There has been LOTS of criticism of GRRM in general, and AFFC in particular. The problem with your criticisms in particular is that you aren't saying anything new, at least not for the regulars here. It's reached the point that except for some really crackpot ideas (something like, umm, Eddard is really alive because he doesn't die in his own POV, Sansa never rally gets a good look at him, and the head on the spike doesn't look anything like Eddard to Sansa), saying there isn't anything new to say. The analogy i'll make is that there's a GRRM book club that meets a few times a week to discuss his works in general and ASOIAF in particular. These people have been meeting for the past 7 or 8 years and continue to meet, despite the lack of ADWD being published. A new person shows up one day and makes so0me very eloquent arguments for GRRM being a slacker, losing his focus, lying to his readers, etc (admittedly, you haven't said all of those things). The old regulars shift uncomfortably, some roll their eyes, some feel embarrassment for the newcomer, other get pissed off for their time being wasted. Everyone is fairly polite, but the new member is politely told that none of the old members have any desire to spend their meeting time focusing on negative things that have already been covered. It doesn't make the newcomer a bad person, or even unwelcome, it just means that the book club doesn't want to reinvent that particular wheel.

Think of this forum as being an online version of that mythical book club. To be really blunt, there's probably nothing new that you can bring to the table, unless you uncover something new about the HBO series, or happen to stumble upon GRRM's ADWD release announcement before anyone else, or come up with a new crackpot theory. Your participation is welcome, your objections to AFFC and GRRM's ADWD process are duly noted.

What now?

PS my book club analogy is a general one, not particularly directed at Soul Singing as much as the very new people that have come here complaining.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Excellent analogy. I'd be the potted plant in the corner.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

The issue that everyone fails to realize is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, or criticizm. Although, we encourage "constructive" criticizm, it should be accepted either way. I truly didn't come here with the thought that everyone shares the same view point of GRRM. In fact I like the different points of view in regards to his work and his hobbys. It's interesting to get to know the person (through his blog posts) whom has a "Classic" on his hands.

The argument that "everything has been said" in regards to criticizm, is the same the other way around for what has been said in his defense. However, as time passes, new frustrations will build and the patient folks will start to turn sour. I can almost gaurantee that those who are voicing there displeasure now, were probably on the other side of the fence a year ago, 6 months ago, or set off by his latest blog post where he's doing things he enjoys and not writing.

All in all, I think both sides have valid arguments, but either side shouldnt come down on the other for voicing their opinion, or by telling them that they shouldn't voice it. Especially, since everything has really already been said on both sides. In my opinion, no one should be told not to speak their mind as long as they're being civil.

Personally, I'm a GRRM slappy. However, I'm not going to tell someone they have to post warm and fuzzy things and lather me in GRRM lotion.

In closing, there are hundreds of threads under GRRM in this forum. There are alot of feel good, specific topic, and GRRM ego stroking threads. This one happens to be one for the GRRM fans that want to voice their displeasure. If anything, the adament GRRM slappies are trying to hijack or criticize those (still GRRM fans) who are growing more and more upset with the length it's taking, and/or his work ethic.

If this thread is for you, join in. If it's not, click the back button and choose a discussion that is more of your flavor.

 

[soulsinging]

I think you're being narrow in your focus and simplistic in the way that you dismiss "defenders" of AFFC..

That was my point... to respond in kind to smiling weirwood's narrow and simplistic way of dismissing its critics as being too impatient for politics and just wanting action and war. If I'm being narrow and simplistic so was s/he.

 

[soulsinging]

To be really blunt, there's probably nothing new that you can bring to the table, unless you uncover something new about the HBO series, or happen to stumble upon GRRM's ADWD release announcement before anyone else, or come up with a new crackpot theory. Your participation is welcome, your objections to AFFC and GRRM's ADWD process are duly noted.

Funny way to say one's participation is welcome after making it clear my opinions are not because you have already had the discussion. If I had made the argument 10 years ago it might be valid but it is not now because you and your buddies already have? Seems to me, plenty of people here are interested in this discussion, or it would not be 13 pages.

 

[wolfpost]

Just be glad we aren't dredging up old posts and answering like they are new ones like the newbies do on some of the other sites I'm on. So I somewhat understand why "The Imp" and others are annoyed by us revisiting old topics.

What is really strange is how they will answer a thread that was last posted on 2 years prior like it is brand new. Then wonder why none of the posters on that thread answer them. That's because they are no longer here. LOL.

I suggest that the Imp and others do what I do on the other boards and just ignore us if we bring up old subjects they are no longer interested in. Hey, I understand perfectly why you "old timers" would feel that way. I mean, at this point anything we do bring up here has probably been said a long time ago unless it's about the HBO series or when the new book comes out. But for me and a few others I guess, we have never talked about some of this stuff before so it's very new to us.

I swear to God though, you guys are tempting me to read book four right now. Just to see if I will like it or not more than anything.

 

[No One]

I swear to God though, you guys are tempting me to read book four right now. Just to see if I will like it or not more than anything.

Speaking of rehashing old information...

I think I answered to Soulsinging's viewpoint somewhere, and somewhen, else, but while we're on the subject I may as well say it again.

I'm not at all saying Soulsinging is wrong with regard to AFFC showing a loss of control - I only hope so - but I think AFFC will be the broadest point of diversion in the series. I say that because after ASOS new seeds needed to be sown, all of which will now be focused toward the apex of the story.

I have no gripe against the fourth book, but A Dance with Dragons will really give us an insight into Soulsinging's argument.

 

[Mesanna]

In my opinion, no one should be told not to speak their mind as long as they're being civil.

Well said.

 

[The Imp]

Just be glad we aren't dredging up old posts and answering like they are new ones like the newbies do on some of the other sites I'm on. So I somewhat understand why "The Imp" and others are annoyed by us revisiting old topics.

What is really strange is how they will answer a thread that was last posted on 2 years prior like it is brand new. Then wonder why none of the posters on that thread answer them. That's because they are no longer here. LOL.

I suggest that the Imp and others do what I do on the other boards and just ignore us if we bring up old subjects they are no longer interested in. Hey, I understand perfectly why you "old timers" would feel that way. I mean, at this point anything we do bring up here has probably been said a long time ago unless it's about the HBO series or when the new book comes out. But for me and a few others I guess, we have never talked about some of this stuff before so it's very new to us.

I swear to God though, you guys are tempting me to read book four right now. Just to see if I will like it or not more than anything.

I'm not annoyed, and just to respond quickly to LordSnow, I've never sxaid anyone shouldn't speak their mind, nor has anyone else suggested that. What i've said is there is nothing original that a new person can complain about regarding GRRM and AFFC that hasn't already been said multiple times. I also question people's otivation and making a gripe post about GRRM their way of introudcing themselves to a new forum, but I won't go as far as to say that they were trolling. The fact that people have civially answered long standing gripes about both subjects is a testament to the maturity of this board.

As for reading AFFC. It's a really simple decision IMO> If you plan on reading ADWD you have to read AFFC, if you don't plan on reading ADWD, stopping at ASOS is probably a good a spot as any. The book itself is not on par with the first 3. I found it hard to "get into", partly because the guy who read the first 3 didn't do the 4th and the new guy was/is 'different", being very kind. There have been internet petitions requesting that Roy Dotrice re-record AFFC, but that hasn't gone anywhere as far as I know. There's a lot of Iron Island stuff, lots of Dornish stuff. I think the importance of these will become more apparent in the next book. you won't find any Dany, Bran, Tyrion or Jon POVs, and that was disappointing to a lot of us. Still though, the book is good, and the pace picks up after a slow beginning. Again, it's a must read if you plan to move on to the next ones.

 

[soulsinging]

I have no gripe against the fourth book, but A Dance with Dragons will really give us an insight into Soulsinging's argument.

It definitely hinges on ADWD... and I hope to be proven completely wrong!

 

[soulsinging]

I'm not annoyed, and just to respond quickly to LordSnow, I've never sxaid anyone shouldn't speak their mind, nor has anyone else suggested that. What i've said is there is nothing original that a new person can complain about regarding GRRM and AFFC that hasn't already been said multiple times.

Undoubtedly this is true for those that have been following the series since the beginning. But some of us are newer to the series and have not had these discussions, so they are "new" and "original" to us. If some are bored by this discussion because it's been had multiple times, nobody is forcing them to read, let alone contribute, to the same discussion again. That is how is it different from a book club as you describe. It's not rude to ignore those of us you want to roll your eyes at

Those that are tired of this debate might want to buckle up... once that hbo series hits the air we're likely to see a LOT of newcomers that will run into the same disappointment with AFFC... unless he actually gets ADWD done first!

 

[The Imp]

Undoubtedly this is true for those that have been following the series since the beginning. But some of us are newer to the series and have not had these discussions, so they are "new" and "original" to us. If some are bored by this discussion because it's been had multiple times, nobody is forcing them to read, let alone contribute, to the same discussion again. That is how is it different from a book club as you describe. It's not rude to ignore those of us you want to roll your eyes at

Those that are tired of this debate might want to buckle up... once that hbo series hits the air we're likely to see a LOT of newcomers that will run into the same disappointment with AFFC... unless he actually gets ADWD done first!

Usually some like TK posts numerous links to threads that contain the noob's answers

As for ADWD, i think all will be forgiven assuming ADWD is published within the first half of this year and it rises to or exceeds the level of ASOS.I think that the nature of the story will create a funneling effect, one where characters disappear or become irrelevant in other ways. The stories will be tighter and easier to write.

Anyway, I'm going off to start my new crackpot theory thread

 

[the smiling weirwood]

That was my point... to respond in kind to smiling weirwood's narrow and simplistic way of dismissing its critics as being too impatient for politics and just wanting action and war. If I'm being narrow and simplistic so was s/he.

I suppose we're at loggerheads then, because where you see confusion and lack of focus I see subtlety and a breadth of narrative that is truly a joy to read. I don't think using new POVs is a sign of bad writing, or that be using multiple new characters that GRRM is running out of creative steam. Every new POV in AFFC serves a purpose, and they all serve very well. ASOIAF, as much as we love the characters, is more about the story itself than any one or even any handful of characters. We learned that in the first book when Eddard was killed. So to say, "Oh, he's tossed the old characters for some random nobodies who pop in and out! That old fart must have hit writer's block and now he's just throwing stuff at the wall!" is kind of ridiculous, at least in my opinion.

So, I politely let the argument to rest since I don't think we're going anywhere.

Although, I do have confidence I will eventually be vindicated.

 

[Pedro Del Mar]

I wouldn't call my reaction vitriol so much as alarm. And I've plenty of patience for politics... my favorite character is Baelish and I actually greatly enjoyed Sansa's chapters.

Blimey - that just goes to prove how people's tastes differ!

Sansa is my least favourite character, I'm currently going through the audiobooks and even listening to the Sansa chapters grates on my nerves. Baelish isn't far behind either. Really shows you how two poeple can read the same series and enjoy completely different parts. Jon and Arya are my favourites.

Listening to the audiobooks - which takes some listening - has revitalised my interest in the series and I'm hoping that when I come to the end of the audiobooks GRRM will have released the next installment as I'm now certain I'm going to buy it.

 

[The Imp]

Blimey - that just goes to prove how people's tastes differ!

Sansa is my least favourite character, I'm currently going through the audiobooks and even listening to the Sansa chapters grates on my nerves. Baelish isn't far behind either. Really shows you how two poeple can read the same series and enjoy completely different parts. Jon and Arya are my favourites.

Listening to the audiobooks - which takes some listening - has revitalised my interest in the series and I'm hoping that when I come to the end of the audiobooks GRRM will have released the next installment as I'm now certain I'm going to buy it.

Bravo for the audiobooks I'd read them even if I didn't have to. I'm hoping against hope that AFFC is re-recorded at some point by Roy Dotrice and also that Roy does ADWD. He's getting up there in age, he will turn 88 in May, and I have no idea if he's still working.

Hearing Roy do Shae is worth the price of admission. It's really hilarious.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Bravo for the audiobooks I'd read them even if I didn't have to. I'm hoping against hope that AFFC is re-recorded at some point by Roy Dotrice and also that Roy does ADWD. He's getting up there in age, he will turn 88 in May, and I have no idea if he's still working.

Hearing Roy do Shae is worth the price of admission. It's really hilarious.

I agree, I would love to see Roy finish the series. If he could read ADOS that would be awesome, although that would be about 10 years in the making. It's possible he could be doing the reading on his 100th birthday. What a present that would be.

 

[Pedro Del Mar]

Getting hold of the audiobooks took some doing, they're not available anywhere in the UK, except for AFFC. Tried loads and loads of different websites and they just kept coming up with "sorry but these are unavailable in your region". I'd understand if I was in Outer Mongolia but I'm in the UK! Anyhow, managed to find all of them thankfully.

 

[The Imp]

Getting hold of the audiobooks took some doing, they're not available anywhere in the UK, except for AFFC. Tried loads and loads of different websites and they just kept coming up with "sorry but these are unavailable in your region". I'd understand if I was in Outer Mongolia but I'm in the UK! Anyhow, managed to find all of them thankfully.

I remember us exchanging PMs about that. Glad you were able to get them.