I no longer feel obligated to purchase ADWD. Is that wrong?

Peace,

I would like to apologize to all here about causing a ruckus and coming off so strongly. I would especially like to apologize to Ursala for the mean spirited words I directed at him/her. You did not change my mind about Mr. Martin but any further argument here is pointless and all it will cause is more sour feelings and endless bickering. I had no right to come here and upset your apple cart like that. As pointed out to me, that is not what this forum is all about and I shouldn't have tried to make it change for what I wanted.

In the future I will try my best from sounding so harsh and critical of things I dislike. In my defense, some of the boards I usually post on can get very combative and I guess I just naturally brought that behavior over here. 4 hours a night sleep from working overnights doesn't help either.

So when I finally reread his books or watch the HBO series, I will direct my comments to a safer thread. LOL.

Again I apologize. Also let it be known, as angry as I may have sounded, I wasn't all that angry as I don't take "on line" fights that seriously. A lot of that is just to win an argument more than anything. A competition. And since Ursala was going to win ours I bow in submission.

Laters and enjoy the books and HBO Series.

That is exceptionally gracious of you, wolfpost.

May I, in return, apologise for my over-eagerness to join the fray**, something driven little by good manners, less by good sense, and more by testosterone.


Peace. :)



** - Not, I hope you agree, as bad as joining the Frey....
 
Hmmmm! The air is definitely better in here! Thanks to all of you who had a hand in clearing it.

I wonder how my Kaypro 4 would measure up to Imp's Atari 800XL? It's still in my parents furnace room...
 
I no longer feel obligated to switch on my Trash-80, always assuming it would allow itself to be switched on.

(The first micro I used was a PET, but I never owned one.)
 
The crux of the original post was that at this point (5 years) I feel like GRRM is not showing respect for his fans by putting up, Gone Hawking, blogs (that’s when I lost it too) instead of showing some kind of serious urgency. And because of this I was teetering on bootlegging this book instead of buying it.

I didn’t even have an issue with him setting our expectations and then not coming through. Hey it’s a complicated story and I’m fine with him starting over or changing things. Again, this was all fine until the 5 year mark (for me 5 years was the tipping point).

Wolfpost – thanks for your contribution – you are entitled to your opinion and instead of getting upset that you were too harsh I thought you made two great points and another alarming one:

FIRST GOOD POINT. -- That it’s been 10 years since the last good book in the series. I don’t agree with this point as is, because after re-reading AFFC I liked it a lot. However, it has been 10 years since the average fan has read a POV from one, two, or three of their favorite characters. This was also the reason why the first read of AFFC was disappointing. We had waited 5 years for AFFC and then it doesn’t have our favorite POVs? How can we not be disappointed? Back to my original argument – GRRM does not do a good enough job, in my mind, of showing us that he realizes things like this. To say, and I’m paraphrasing here, “I realize this is the largest margin I’ve ever missed a deadline” in a podcast isn’t enough for me considering he’s got “Gone Hawking” in his blog. 10 years is a long time to keep fans of the series waiting for the best aspects of (and possibly the reason why they like) these books.

SECOND GOOD POINT. -- The Money baby the Money!! Give a little back to those of us who buy everything you write. Show a little obligation, that’s all. I’m willing to give you five years to do “whatever” before I feel that you should at least show some sense of obligation to your fans.

THE ALARMING POINT – You may be right about his feelings about writing these books. He is not oblivious to how setting expectations and then blowing them affects his fans over time. Maybe he feels that angst that some of us do when thinking about having to do homework or a long paper when we could be doing something that we would enjoy more. This to me is scary. He should enjoy writing these books and everything you say makes logical sense that this has become such a burden he is not enjoying it anymore. If this was a labor of love would it really take this long?

I have to disagree with the diabolical GRRM tricking us into eagerly waiting by stringing us along. That’s just mean. I don’t think he’s mean. I think he thought he’d be done by now…
 
Thanx guys for accepting my apology. No problem Ursa.

I cut my teeth on the internet on the NY Yankee boards. Any baseball fan knows that Yankee fans and Red Sox fans don't mix. Add to that the " jealous little brother" mentality a lot of Met fans have regarding the Yankees and that is a caustic brew. Met fans are actually worse than the Red Sox fans. You should see some of the stuff that's said there. I see the Imp knows what I speak of.

Then another site run by an entertainment company I post on is always at war with their rival companies fans. More drama. So now I come here amongst more "relaxed" people and I took my "tude" with me. LOL. I swear I didn't even realize I was doing it at first.

Good point on this being "old news" to you guys. It is to me too but I never really spoke much about it before to any one. His latest blog just set me off.

Gry wind said, "I have to disagree with the diabolical GRRM tricking us into eagerly waiting by stringing us along. That’s just mean. I don’t think he’s mean. I think he thought he’d be done by now…"

That was a bit of hyperbole and speculation gry. Not everything I throw out there do I 100% agree is happening. Just a speculation on a possible reason. As noted before, coming from those other sites, you learn how to say things to excite, irritate the other side of the argument. Angry people make mistakes. So when arguing, if you can get them angry they may say something that you can exploit. Sort of second nature for me now. LOL.

Uhm, I more meant that because of the delays, it might be that he or his reps, sometimes will make it sound like the book is closer to being done than it is so that the fan base won't lose interest because it is taking so long. Not to be mean but to maintain interest.

One concern I do have is that he has taken so long writing this book, I am worried that it will be hard to have cohesion with the other books. I hope not but it is a concern.

Laters.
 
This thread is a saga in itself! Epic battles, unexpected alliances, redemption, smilies... If he's stuck, GRRM can probably scrounge some ideas from here.
 
Just for clarification.. After reading my last post again I actually would rather make the point that I can conceive of how some might think that GRRM owes them something. However, I don't in fact believe GRRM owes me anything because I feel as most of you do that it seems catty to bitch about and artist not making art fast enough.

The better way to put it would be that with every passing day, week, month, and year I feel less and less like I owe him anything.

Wolfpost made me think "Yeah I'm not buying this thing - 10 years since my fav POVs!"

Then he kind of, inadvertently, made me feel sorry for GRRM - Because if he is not enjoying writing these books and actually is stressed and is feeling angst about the series then I'd feel guilty. The fact that I haven't seen that from him with all the jet setting he does was the reason for my original post.
 
Just for clarification.. After reading my last post again I actually would rather make the point that I can conceive of how some might think that GRRM owes them something. However, I don't in fact believe GRRM owes me anything because I feel as most of you do that it seems catty to bitch about and artist not making art fast enough.

The better way to put it would be that with every passing day, week, month, and year I feel less and less like I owe him anything.

Wolfpost made me think "Yeah I'm not buying this thing - 10 years since my fav POVs!"

Then he kind of, inadvertently, made me feel sorry for GRRM - Because if he is not enjoying writing these books and actually is stressed and is feeling angst about the series then I'd feel guilty. The fact that I haven't seen that from him with all the jet setting he does was the reason for my original post.
If you read GRRM's blog regularly it would be crystal clear to you that

A) he didn't choose to take this ammount of time to finish ADWD

B) the process has been incredibly frustrating to him

C) he feels lousy about the whole thing.

At least that's what I've gotten after reading his blog regularly.
 
If you read GRRM's blog regularly it would be crystal clear to you that

A) he didn't choose to take this ammount of time to finish ADWD

B) the process has been incredibly frustrating to him

C) he feels lousy about the whole thing.

At least that's what I've gotten after reading his blog regularly.


Actions speak louder than words,.. But who am I kidding I'll probably buy the damn thing.
 
My feeling is GRRM has been seriously struggling and was probably very unmotivated, which is why I rather pity him over the delays, rather than feel angry.

It must be very easy to go to another convention rather than force yourself to sit in front of your computer, only to repeatedly bang your head off the monitor in frustration because you can't write a way out of the problems you've created for yourself. It must be soul-destroying. And yet ... he's still hanging in there, banging away on his keyboard, rewriting chapter after chapter (and who knows how many times some of those chapters have been rewritten).

I could maybe justify criticizing GRRM for being a bad planner and not thinking his plot lines through thoroughly enough, but hey he's only human and we can't always anticipate everything. I can't be down on him though for still striving to finish the story, even though I - like everyone else - wish it didn't take as long.
 
I think the mistake GRRM made was to open his writing process, as well as his life, up to his fans. Given the nature of his many projects, and the incessant pervasiveness of today's social media, doing so may have been inevitable and impossible NOT to have done so, but as far as I know, there are other authors that quietly write their books and release them when they're done.

The problem arose though, that in an attempt to keep his fans up to date and informed, he created the feeling in some people that he had been disingenuous in his initial estimates of when Dance would be finished.. I think that those early estimates, coupled with GRRM blogging about his normal (for a writer of his caliber) life has pissed a lot of people off, but that may be more symptomatic of the times than anything else.

Everyone is a critic today, and everyone not only knows the answer to everything, but they also willing to share it with everyone else, and sometimes take the extreme action of clubbing someone over the head, metaphorically of course, if that person doesn't conform to what they believe reality should be. I've said before that GRRM owes me a completed series, I just happen to believe that he's worked as hard as he could have to produce it.

The truth for me is fairly simple. People who don't know the difference between you and you're, their and there, or past and passed are criticizing someone who is perhaps the best writer of their lifetime. If it's so easy to crank out about 1600 manuscript pages and have them all fit together like a 400,000 word jigsaw puzzle that just happens to be a piece of art painted with words after it's done, then THEY should write their own epic fantasy series and stop whining.

Sorry to be standing on a soap box so early in the morning. My wife is a college professor and also a performing artist (dance), so over the years i've come to understand how little critics of all types, ranging from the semi-literate internet critics who just like to complain, to the professional ones who get to destroy work that they could never produce and have very little understand of how it was even created, just how cruel and wrong these so-called experts can be. My apologies btw for that horribly constructed sentence. I blame lack of coffee and food. Anyway, thank goodness my wife performs as part of teaching and doesn't have to deal with these idiots, but i know many of her firends who do. The critics invariably have no clue as to what they're talking about.

OK, I'll quit while I'm behind. move along folks, nothing to see here. I'll go find a lawn sign to yell at.
 
I have no idea if it went down this way.

George goes to Ireland to do some quality control, consult, and rally the mini series troops. He is fascinated by the trained crows ( because they are so smart and cool), and talks to one of the lowly minions (because he does not see himself as above them), the bird trainer. He asks him questions about the habits of crows (since he has to write about them a lot). He asks him about training birds (since he needs to write about Dany and maybe Tyrion training dragons and wants to do a good job). He knows there are no dragon lairs around Ireland anymore, except ones with wonderful beer. He asks the trainer if he has any more birds. The lowly bird handler tells him that he does, he has 10 crows, 7 budgies, 5 parrots and two pairs of hawks. George is excited and geeks out because he likes medieval detail. The trainer says, well Mr Martin, would you like to go hawking? George says that he would love to!!! He thinks it is so cool that he will let his fans know. He is so used to his fans being supportive, and his detractors ripping him a new one for taking "time off" that he doesn't even think about it anymore. He makes a pun out of "Going Fishing" and says that he is going hawking. You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant.

Still mad?
 
People who don't know the difference between you and you're, their and there, or past and passed are criticizing someone who is perhaps the best writer of their lifetime.

I know the differences between those quite well, and yet I criticize. I'm not getting paid to do it as a professional either. I do not club him over the head, I've never even written him and rather doubt he's ever read a word I've said. I just happen to feel that the writing is on the wall that he has lost control of this series the way Jordan did WoT. I couldn't care less how long it takes him to write each book, what bothers me is the signs of self-indulgence/writer's block that the last book showed and that the current delay indicates have not abated.

It was supposed to be a trilogy. Then it was a pair of trilogies with a 5-year gap in plot between the two. Then he absolutely had to fill in that gap with 2 (maybe 3 when all is said and done) juggernauts. Now the whole thing is supposed to be 7 books. Where does it stop? Jordan ran into the same thing... even on his death bed he swore it would only be 12 books, now it will be 15 at the end. It's not the length of time, it's the authorial decision that one is above editing and every idea one has is worthy of 100 pages of prose exploring it. And if I cannot gather with other literary-minded people here to discuss the merits of a piece of writing, what does this board exist for?
 
I have no idea if it went down this way.

George goes to Ireland to do some quality control, consult, and rally the mini series troops. He is fascinated by the trained crows ( because they are so smart and cool), and talks to one of the lowly minions (because he does not see himself as above them), the bird trainer. He asks him questions about the habits of crows (since he has to write about them a lot). He asks him about training birds (since he needs to write about Dany and maybe Tyrion training dragons and wants to do a good job). He knows there are no dragon lairs around Ireland anymore, except ones with wonderful beer. He asks the trainer if he has any more birds. The lowly bird handler tells him that he does, he has 10 crows, 7 budgies, 5 parrots and two pairs of hawks. George is excited and geeks out because he likes medieval detail. The trainer says, well Mr Martin, would you like to go hawking? George says that he would love to!!! He thinks it is so cool that he will let his fans know. He is so used to his fans being supportive, and his detractors ripping him a new one for taking "time off" that he doesn't even think about it anymore. He makes a pun out of "Going Fishing" and says that he is going hawking. You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant.

Still mad?

This is Great! I totally agreed and empathized for 4 years and 364 days. After that,.. he should have known better ;-)
 
So no ... er ... leap of faith, then...? ;)


I have to say that I do, occasionally, worry about the point soulsinging made about how the series might become too bloated. (I'm fine with the broadening in AFFC: the Iron Born were always going to enter the story and I found Brienne's trek useful in the way it reinforced the view that warfare is not a game.)

I hope that the breadth of view is near enough as wide as it's going to get and will begin to narrow. Whether it will or not may not yet be apparent even after we get to the end of ADWD. At least the part that's in parallel with AFFC won't show much narrowing (and possibly the opposite, as we get to see more of Essos). Even the part of ADWD that's meant post-date AFFC may not give enough scope for the narrowing.

On the other hand, characters, POV and otherwise, may be biting the dust every few chapters in ADWD - it isn't as if GRRM isn't skilled in this perhaps necessary task - so our fears may be allayed.


But it looks as if we're going to find out one way or another this year. :)
 
LOL, I know the difference between their and there but when writing on boards I often am so intent on getting my point across, I will write the wrong word without even realizing it.

I think for me, part of the problem is the "cliff hanger" style these longer series have. If each book had a beginning and an end, these long delays would bother me much less.

In hind sight, if Martin had kept to the original trilogy idea and did something like Eddings or Donaldson did with the "Thomas Covenant" Series, I doubt I would be complaining at all. End the original three books with a definite ending before starting a new trilogy. Donaldson has done it twice now I believe and I have no problem at all that it's been well over 10 years since the last book in the series. The new series seems to have 2-3 years in between each book and it dosn't bother me one bit. Of course I am dieing to read them but I won't until the last book is out.
 
I think for me, part of the problem is the "cliff hanger" style these longer series have. If each book had a beginning and an end, these long delays would bother me much less.
I think his prior experience as a writer of tv shows has something to do with that...At least i think in that biz you have to end basically each show so that it'd make the viewer yearn for the next.


This in essence has nothing to do with this topic...But i've just thought about that and thought i'd throw it out here!
 
My apologies if my earlier post offended anyone. It wasn't directed at anyone here, no one was quoted or named in my post, and i took care to speak in generalities. It was probably a post that was more a general complaint about the state of things in general than speciically about GRRM's critics in particular. I'll keep it short in the hope that ruffled feathers have been smoothed over.
 
LOL, The Imp, I didn't take it that you meant me or any one here. I just know I sometimes do that and was too lazy to look back to see if I did.
 
I feel as is I should be defending the honor of AFFC, as I know it is undeserving of all the vitriol heaped upon it, but I despair.

It's common wisdom that you can't argue away someone's opinion, so I suppose I shouldn't even attempt it.

What I will say though, is that I believe you're ruining the book for yourself by convincing yourself so firmly that it is awful, primarily because it doesn't focus on your favorite characters. Instead of appreciating the value of the book as it is, you hate it because it isn't what you thought it should be.

Ultimately, this is GRRM's work of art, not yours, and we don't know how it will end, so it is impossible to judge what is the best path for him to take.

P.S. I've said this before, but I'll say it again. I privately suspect that many who dislike AFFC do so because it doesn't focus on the exciting war and combat they so relish in their fiction, and instead focuses on politics, intrigue, and the effects of the war on the people of Westeros, which is something they have little patience, and perhaps the attention span, for. In an epic so wide and vast, a change of focus is inevitable, and indeed desired. Trying to narrate the entire thing from Winterfell, or a war camp, would have been impossible.
 

Back
Top