I no longer feel obligated to purchase ADWD. Is that wrong?

[wolfpost]

Wethead, I have to disagree with you. I clearly remember him saying that book 5 was 80%- 90% done when he announced book 4's release. He went on to say that it wouldn't be that long as most of it was already written. He defiantly made it sound like it was being split because of the length and not because of the other part not being ready.

I don't doubt he also said what you mentioned about it not being nearly ready because I saw him say things like that too.

I said this before if not here then somewhere else. If Martin wasn't always on his web site selling things and telling us about every other thing he is doing besides writing the books, I would be like you guys here and would be just saying all well, I get it when I get it.

It also bothers me that we paid full price for what essentially is half a book by his own words. Then we have to do it again.

When I hear about his "Wild Cards, or selling out of print or stock merchandise or the latest trip he is going on and he can't write away from home, I'm sorry, it just makes me angry. Could any of us get away with that in our jobs? I just don't like putting these strars on a pedistal. they get full of themselves after awhile. Hell, I would too. The personally selling stuff on the internet just makes him look cheap to me. And that's more time taken away from the book.

I never said he shouldn't have a personal life. My gripe is over all the extra work or endeavours he is involved in with a book 5-10 years past due. Put the dam Wild Cards to the side. Maybe go to one or two less conventions a month. Stop selling crap from your house. Does he really need to be the only source of out of date calandars? That just looks money grubbing to me.

Sit down and finish your book and take a year or two off before you start the next one. And be quiet about what your doing instead of writing it.

 

[wolfpost]

Oh, as far as writing goes. I have written a handful of short stories but I don't think they will be received well here as they are of the pornographic variety.

I IN NO WAY equate that to doing a massive story like Martin is doing. I think he's a great writer. i never said i didn't. I just don't buy that it takes 5-10 years to write a book. Assuming an average of 78 hours a day 5 days a week like everyone else has to work.

If most of us had the time and were properly compensated and new the books really well, I contend almost any of us could produce a competent book 5 in half the time. Not saying it would be as good as what Martin does, I'm saying it would be readable and would make sense.

Being that this is his job and he's very good at it, Much better than I am, I just expect more from him than what I think I could do.

i just think you give these guys to much credit. Writing is easy for him and he's good at it. If your good at something, which martin clearly is, it just dosn't take this long if your into it.

 

[The Imp]

Wethead, I have to disagree with you. I clearly remember him saying that book 5 was 80%- 90% done when he announced book 4's release. He went on to say that it wouldn't be that long as most of it was already written. He defiantly made it sound like it was being split because of the length and not because of the other part not being ready.

I don't doubt he also said what you mentioned about it not being nearly ready because I saw him say things like that too.

I said this before if not here then somewhere else. If Martin wasn't always on his web site selling things and telling us about every other thing he is doing besides writing the books, I would be like you guys here and would be just saying all well, I get it when I get it.

It also bothers me that we paid full price for what essentially is half a book by his own words. Then we have to do it again.

When I hear about his "Wild Cards, or selling out of print or stock merchandise or the latest trip he is going on and he can't write away from home, I'm sorry, it just makes me angry. Could any of us get away with that in our jobs? I just don't like putting these strars on a pedistal. they get full of themselves after awhile. Hell, I would too. The personally selling stuff on the internet just makes him look cheap to me. And that's more time taken away from the book.

I never said he shouldn't have a personal life. My gripe is over all the extra work or endeavours he is involved in with a book 5-10 years past due. Put the dam Wild Cards to the side. Maybe go to one or two less conventions a month. Stop selling crap from your house. Does he really need to be the only source of out of date calandars? That just looks money grubbing to me.

Sit down and finish your book and take a year or two off before you start the next one. And be quiet about what your doing instead of writing it.

By your own admission you didn't pay anything for the fourth book becuase you haven't read it and won't buy it until ADWD is released. Pretty much your words, as I'm remembering.

You've made your point. You're pissed at GRRM. It seems that you really aren't going to say much more than that, although you might create some very long posts that fewer and fewer people will read, mainly becuase of your tone and overall snarkiness.

I'm not a mod, but I play one on TV, err, another forum. If I was I'd warn you about your tone, and suggest that you keep your posts civil. In the absence of a mod saying that, I'll make the same suggestion just as one of the longer tenured posters on this board.

Again, there are boars where your endless complaints will be welcomed with open arms. this isn't one of them

 

[Eulalia]

Wolfpost, steady there. Most of us have had frustrated thoughts such as yours and you are entitled to them. I don't agree with them in the long run, and Mesanna has a good post about acceptance! Ursa is an excellent debator, so behold a master at work.

Small business is fun, and I don't see why, in the land of free enterprise, GRRM should not sell things related to the fruits of his labours. You do not, and that's okay. I think its cool, I like to see the calendars and other peripherals, and its not a bit about being on a pedestal. Pedestal people don't tell fans about their urinary infections and the reasons behind announcement delays.

You're probably right that GRRM's level of involvement in other projects delays the books. He is also a very responsive author who seems to take a genuine interest in his fans, socializing with all sorts of people, and trying out his writing. He likes to do different things. It is a free country. I like the stuff that he puts out including a whole mini series (I hope to enjoy it). He seems like a very interested, enthusiastic, humane, observant and diverse fellow, the only kind that could write convincingly in the voices of so many characters. I find him very honourable in his political points of view as well. He does not glorify war or killing or knighthood, and instead shows it to be complicated, sometimes evil, sometimes agonizing and morally confusing. People suffer with their decisions, yet they have to keep making them. The ones who are not passionate (and you seem to be) are pretty horrible. I don't know if anyone here would truly want to live in Westeros, but it is a fascinating take on history and fantasy.

Why not post something else about the books, now that that is off your chest?

 

[Robin Goodfellow]

GRRM is not your bitch.

Simple as that. Deal with it.

 

[The Imp]

Wolfpost, steady there. Most of us have had frustrated thoughts such as yours and you are entitled to them. I don't agree with them in the long run, and Mesanna has a good post about acceptance! Ursa is an excellent debator, so behold a master at work.

Small business is fun, and I don't see why, in the land of free enterprise, GRRM should not sell things related to the fruits of his labours. You do not, and that's okay. I think its cool, I like to see the calendars and other peripherals, and its not a bit about being on a pedestal. Pedestal people don't tell fans about their urinary infections and the reasons behind announcement delays.

You're probably right that GRRM's level of involvement in other projects delays the books. He is also a very responsive author who seems to take a genuine interest in his fans, socializing with all sorts of people, and trying out his writing. He likes to do different things. It is a free country. I like the stuff that he puts out including a whole mini series (I hope to enjoy it). He seems like a very interested, enthusiastic, humane, observant and diverse fellow, the only kind that could write convincingly in the voices of so many characters. I find him very honourable in his political points of view as well. He does not glorify war or killing or knighthood, and instead shows it to be complicated, sometimes evil, sometimes agonizing and morally confusing. People suffer with their decisions, yet they have to keep making them. The ones who are not passionate (and you seem to be) are pretty horrible. I don't know if anyone here would truly want to live in Westeros, but it is a fascinating take on history and fantasy.

Why not post something else about the books, now that that is off your chest?

Or maybe GRRM's involvement in other projects keep him sane enough to be able to write huge books thatare impeccably crafted and hang together better than a 10,000 dollar suit.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

All right, I think it's time for a little intervention here. I know that some of you rarely venture outside of the GRRM forum and may not recognize me as a moderator, and I would have preferred it if one of the moderators who does post in this sub-forum were to say a timely word, but they're off elsewhere, so it falls on me.

It's time for everyone to cool down, try to respect each other's viewpoints even if you can't agree with them, and above all remember that on all our Chronicles forums we expect civility. Always. No matter how heated the debate or how strongly held the opinions.

 

[digs]

GRRM is not your bitch.

Simple as that. Deal with it.

It's not that simple though - hence the debate.

 

[Ursa major]

Sorry, Teresa, but I feel I have to respond to the post wolfpost directed at me. I'll try to be civil.

Ursala said

Ursa Major, you clearly said, "Even so, I'm NOT going to accuse you of pretending to have read AGOK, ACOK, ASOS and AFFC, because I can see no other reason for your deeply personal and uncalled-for attack on their author."

So I am NOT accusing you of pretending to have read them. In what language and logic system does this mean that I was accusing you?

Ursa Major, you clearly said, "Even so, I'm not going to accuse you of pretending to have read AGOK, ACOK, ASOS and AFFC, because I can see no other reason for your deeply personal and uncalled-for attack on their author."

And here I give the reason why I think you've read them**.

That clearly implies that you do not believe that I read the books. It says you don't believe I read the books but your not going to accuse me of not reading them but essentially you just did.

No it doesn't.

(The only peg on which you might hang this ridiculous line of reasoning is my use of a form, "hard to believe" that in loose, idiomatic, English means "don't believe", which is why I immediately - as shown in the text I've had to put in bold above - added that I was using these words in their strict sense. If you like, I'll be more direct: I find it easy to believe that you read the words of others and put your own spin on them to the extent that you disregard what the words actually state. You are providing a body of evidence for this belief of mine.)

Then you go on to say, "no, I'm going to assume that there's another, all too obvious, explanation for your belief in this absurd, illogical theory....

That is clearly implying that you think I have other motives. Or you are calling me nutz. Once again your not clear. Or do you not see that?

I'm glad to see you're recognising that I might have meant something else. Perhaps we're getting somewhere.

So I suggest to you, either you are back tracking on what you said, trying to use word play to twist what you said or you are having a hard time understanding what you yourself said. My God, do you twist everything you write like that? No wonder you think writing is hard.

I know exactly what I said and I said what I meant.

Maybe if you wrote more clearly instead of trying to be clever, you wouldn't have confused yourself on what you said.

My responses to you are remarkably free of my usual jokey wordplay.

In short, instead of being a wuss...

...and skim the edges of what you want to say just say it straight forward.

Okay: "On those occasions when you want to post ill-informed bile, use another forum. Oh, and learn to parse English properly." Is that good for you?

And please "uncalled for?" Martin has screwed the pooch on this whether or not you think he has writers block or he is just yanking our chains. So stop trying to act like he has no blame for this long wait.

Why is there blame? He hasn't (quite) finished writing a complicated book, which is an onerous task. In your job, do you not take days off? Do you work 24/7?

Look, you think Martin can do no wrong. I think he's full of it. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Since it is very obvious we are not going to like each other, I suggest you drop the topic right now and I will do the same. I had done so until you had decided to re attack me. I even apologized for posting in anger. Don't take that as me being weak. I am very sure that the others here would rather talk about the books and the HBO series than read us two sniping at each other until one or both of us are thrown of the boards. I suspect that would bother you more than me.

I am not a fan of GRRM; I'm a fan of his books and of his writing. There is a difference. I'm quite prepared to accept that you have strong feelings about the man, but this is not the place to voice them, not where they involve what looks like libel (at least as it's defined on my side of The Pond). Oh, and this isn't a battlefield.

I signaled you out because I did not attack you but you clearly attacked me. In my opinion, you are the only one to have done so. Everyone else disagreed with me without being overly rude about it. But you decided to make it personal, despite your half ass back tracking. You know and I know and everyone else knows fully well what you were implying. That I either never read the books or I had some motive that only you know of in posting this. Or that you were trying to dismiss me as a nut. Or all three. If you wern't implying that, why did you bother saying it at all? Oh yes you meant it.

Sorry, but you arrived posting personal (and potentially libellous) invective against an author. What do you want, a medal?

So, this is over as far as I am concerned.

Good.

I feel your "idol" is a bit of a charlatan. You will not change my mind on that. I don't expect to change yours but I didn't expect to be attacked either.

I don't have idols. Neither do I treat people I don't know as demons. Doing either tends to cloud one's judgement.


Have a nice day.


** - At that point, it hadn't registered with me that you hadn't read AFFC.

.

 

[Culhwch]

As one of the unfortunately absent mods mentioned earlier, and just to back up what Teresa has already said - let's all cool down, take a step back, and keep it civil. This thread is perilously close to being shut down. Don't make me knock heads together. I get grumpy when I have to do real work. Not that I won't enjoy it, mind.

 

[Werthead]

Wethead, I have to disagree with you. I clearly remember him saying that book 5 was 80%- 90% done when he announced book 4's release.

His website report (this was before he had his blog) about ADWD's status shortly after AFFC was released:

A DANCE WITH DRAGONS consists of some twenty-two finished chapters totalling 542 manuscript pages, plus another 100 to 150 pages of partial chapters, early drafts, scenes, and fragments. Some of that material will need to be revised, and of course much more remains to be written.

At the time GRRM was thinking of ADWD being 1,200-1,300 manuscript pages long, so he had less than 50% of the book finished at that time. As it turns out, he has ended up writing over 1,600 manuscript pages (some of which has been moved to Book 6 for length and focus reasons), so it's now about a third. And, of course, all of that material has been thoroughly rewritten (including some of the chapters released elsewhere).

He went on to say that it wouldn't be that long as most of it was already written. He defiantly made it sound like it was being split because of the length and not because of the other part not being ready.

In his actual report on completing AFFC and about the split, he says clearly that ADWD is 'half-done', and so appeared to be the case at the time. Definitely not 80-90%.

Of course, he definitely does say that finishing the book off should take about a year, which appears to have been based on his writing speed at the end of AFFC, but did not take into consideration problems involving the Meereenese Knot, which he appears not to have reached at that time.

I said this before if not here then somewhere else. If Martin wasn't always on his web site selling things and telling us about every other thing he is doing besides writing the books, I would be like you guys here and would be just saying all well, I get it when I get it.

I'm not sure about the 'always' thing. I post a lot on the Internet but do so in my spare time. Lots of other people pull a 9-5 shift, write up a blog entry or something in the evening three times a week, and then chill out. The blogging frequency, to me, is not indicative of work not being done on the book.

It also bothers me that we paid full price for what essentially is half a book by his own words. Then we have to do it again.

This is an old, tired argument. AFFC is more than twice the length as the average-sized novel published in the English language. It is thematically a novel in its own right, just lacking half the POV cast from ASoS. In addition, if you call AFFC half a novel, then you have to accept ADWD - which has the full story for the other half of the cast plus the remainder of the stories of the AFFC cast - is a novel-and-a-half. Between them, they are two (huge) books. ADWD is currently about the size of ASoS, maybe slightly larger.

Could any of us get away with that in our jobs?

When you are a financially independent freelancer making many thousands of dollars per quarter from your previous projects, yes, you could, quite easily.

Sit down and finish your book and take a year or two off before you start the next one. And be quiet about what your doing instead of writing it.

He's started the next one already (though, as we saw with ADWD, the value of that may not be too significant if he decides to rewrite it all again).

 

[Pedro Del Mar]

Just read his blog and he says after his hospital scare and recent signings he's now concentrating on Kong which I guess must be a good sign.

At the end of the day he's not a young man anymore so if I was him I wouldn't want to be working 12 hour days either

 

[The Imp]

Just read his blog and he says after his hospital scare and recent signings he's now concentrating on Kong which I guess must be a good sign.

At the end of the day he's not a young man anymore so if I was him I wouldn't want to be working 12 hour days either

I think the shorter work days are about making sure he gets enough rest to fully recover from his illness. The last thing he needs is for it to flare up again, which actually happened to my friend that also had a bout with Urosepsis. GRRM is 62 years old now, certainly not an age that requires frequent naps, soft foods, adult diapers and various attendants wiping drool off your chin I'm sure he'll be back to where he was sooner rather than later, and it's good to hear that he's in the ring with Kong.

 

[soulsinging]

His website report (this was before he had his blog) about ADWD's status shortly after AFFC was released:

At the time GRRM was thinking of ADWD being 1,200-1,300 manuscript pages long, so he had less than 50% of the book finished at that time. As it turns out, he has ended up writing over 1,600 manuscript pages (some of which has been moved to Book 6 for length and focus reasons), so it's now about a third. And, of course, all of that material has been thoroughly rewritten (including some of the chapters released elsewhere).

Honestly, I've never once looked at his website. I was going by the little disclaimer at the back of AFFC. I'd double check it, but I sold my copy after reading it because I figured I'd never bother to read it again. I clearly got the impression that that disclaimer indicated ADWD was near completion and had been primarily split for reasons of length, not the multi-year struggles with plot that turn out to have been the truth.

I also find it pretty telling that he felt the need for a post-script disclaimer. It's a huge cop out and near fraud (if people are going to accuse our criticisms of his approach as libel then I can throw this one out there) that he went about it this way. It's like he knew the book was weak and felt the need to apologize (at the end, no less... no warning up front) for taking people's money on their assumption they were buying a book about the characters and stories that had hooked them and instead got a bunch of plots and characters that had barely been mentioned before and could have been a whole other series for all it related to the main conflicts set up in the first three.

Truly, the entire novel could have been a Hedge Knight style detour, an expanded universe sort of tale, for all it really accomplished. Brienne and Sam's plotlines served no purpose. She wanders, he pukes and loses his virginity. They're minor characters thrust into the limelight for no other apparent reason than his uncertainty about what to do with the main ones. They'd have made wonderful novellas, but have no business as the focus of the main work. The Dornish and Ironborn plots were the sort of thing that he covered in a fraction of the space through views like Davos in the previous novels. I think he's lost control of this story and as such I think it's wrong of him to release a half formed novel under the title that's made him rich while knowing that it is barely worthy of the name, as acknowledged by him feeling obligated to apologize for it at the end of the novel (after you've bought it, of course).

 

[TK-421]

The Dark Side clouds everything.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

From GRRM's Not a Blog:

"The LA trip was great for me. Yes, it was tiring, and I faded a lot faster than before my hospital stay... but it gave my spirits a huge boost to become George the Writer once again, after the dehumanizing experience of being George the Patient.

Anyway, I'm much stronger now than when I left, and getting better every day... but the work has piled up as well, so tomorrow my nose goes back on the grindstone. For a few hours, anyway. Parris and my docs agree, no more twelve-hour days for a while. So posts here may be less frequent than before. Kong comes first."

Was GRRM having fun with word play in regards to George the "Patient"? Just kidding...

I wonder how his 12 hour days were broken down in regards to writing and other things. Nevertheless, it seems that it will be less of the other stuff and more on Kong.

This may be just what the doctor ordered

 

[wolfpost]

Peace,

I would like to apologize to all here about causing a ruckus and coming off so strongly. I would especially like to apologize to Ursala for the mean spirited words I directed at him/her. You did not change my mind about Mr. Martin but any further argument here is pointless and all it will cause is more sour feelings and endless bickering. I had no right to come here and upset your apple cart like that. As pointed out to me, that is not what this forum is all about and I shouldn't have tried to make it change for what I wanted.

In the future I will try my best from sounding so harsh and critical of things I dislike. In my defense, some of the boards I usually post on can get very combative and I guess I just naturally brought that behavior over here. 4 hours a night sleep from working overnights doesn't help either.

So when I finally reread his books or watch the HBO series, I will direct my comments to a safer thread. LOL.

Again I apologize. Also let it be known, as angry as I may have sounded, I wasn't all that angry as I don't take "on line" fights that seriously. A lot of that is just to win an argument more than anything. A competition. And since Ursala was going to win ours I bow in submission.

Laters and enjoy the books and HBO Series.

 

[The Imp]

Peace,

I would like to apologize to all here about causing a ruckus and coming off so strongly. I would especially like to apologize to Ursala for the mean spirited words I directed at him/her. You did not change my mind about Mr. Martin but any further argument here is pointless and all it will cause is more sour feelings and endless bickering. I had no right to come here and upset your apple cart like that. As pointed out to me, that is not what this forum is all about and I shouldn't have tried to make it change for what I wanted.

In the future I will try my best from sounding so harsh and critical of things I dislike. In my defense, some of the boards I usually post on can get very combative and I guess I just naturally brought that behavior over here. 4 hours a night sleep from working overnights doesn't help either.

So when I finally reread his books or watch the HBO series, I will direct my comments to a safer thread. LOL.

Again I apologize. Also let it be known, as angry as I may have sounded, I wasn't all that angry as I don't take "on line" fights that seriously. A lot of that is just to win an argument more than anything. A competition. And since Ursala was going to win ours I bow in submission.

Laters and enjoy the books and HBO Series.

Your post is well appreciated. I can empathize as one of the boards I regularly post on (professional basketball related) is one of the nastiest, snarkiest boards i have seen since I started using compueters back when a 14,400 baud modem was considered hot stuff, and there were people still using 1,200s. Talk about zero bandwidth

Also, don't get the impression that no one here is ever critical of GRRM. It's just that there's nothing left to say about this book being very late that hasn't already been said, and said many times. I guess the lesson to be learned for all of us is, when you get to a new forum, don't assume you've invented the wheel when chances are people are riding around in cars.

If that makes any sense.

 

[TK-421]

...since I started using compueters back when a 14,400 baud modem was considered hot stuff, and there were people still using 1,200s. Talk about zero bandwidth

Ha! Hey, Imp, I had a Commodore Vic 20 and then skipped the Commodore 64 and went for the Amiga 500. That's was real hot stuff

Indeed, wolf, thank you for the apology. Many can learn from that post.

 

[The Imp]

Ha! Hey, Imp, I had a Commodore Vic 20 and then skipped the Commodore 64 and went for the Amiga 500. That's was real hot stuff

Indeed, wolf, thank you for the apology. Many can learn from that post.

My powerhouse of that era was an Atari 800XL I still have a C64 in storage, and a Texas Sinclair someplace