Whom would you choose to be? SPOILERS

[Eulalia]

I agree Messana. Also, Robert turns out not to be such a nice guy or a good husband. Rhaegar is doomed because in order to get rid of Aerys, the rebels can't risk reprisal from the heirs. Maybe someone unscrupulous lied about the rape scenario to keep Ned in the game, and to further Robert's rebellion. Robert lies to himself to avoid recognizing that he was rejected, for who he is as a man. A nice demo of -what defence mechanisms would this be Imp? Reaction formation? He would be furious with Lyanna and feel inadequate(especially since Rhaegar was the better man in a lot of ways) if he allowed the truth to sink in. Also it would make him more of a usurper. Instead she is idealized and made the victim or Rhaegar is villainized. Assuming it was not rape and abduction, of course!

 

[TK-421]

Lyanna (and Rhaegar) leave me with mixed feelings.
I like their separate actions and I know the first aegon married both his sisters and all that, but still...
doesn't change the fact that Rhaegar was cheating on his wife, and Lyanna was an adultress.I know these things happen, but i still just can't stand cheaters. Admittedly, you can't seem to get an easy divorce in Westeros.

Ahhh, the beauty of GRRM's shades of grey. No character is "pure".

As for Westerosi-style divorce, Cersei had it right.

 

[Lyanna Stark]

You have to wonder if she'd had free choice, would she have picked Robert? Doesn't she express doubts about him to Ned?

Lyanna wouldn't have chosen Robert. An excerpt from GoT:

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some young girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."
​

Clearly this suggests that Lyanna was anything but pleased with her father's choice for her. And Ned, being honorable to a fault, was not about to lie to his sister, but having loyalty to Robert, he opted for "but it will be different when it's you" which is little more than "empty optimism" in the face of glaring evidence to the contrary. (Come on Ned, you held the girl in your arms; are you really going to try to lie to your very assertive she-wolf sister?)

Maybe someone unscrupulous lied about the rape scenario to keep Ned in the game, and to further Robert's rebellion. Robert lies to himself to avoid recognizing that he was rejected, for who he is as a man. {...}He would be furious with Lyanna and feel inadequate(especially since Rhaegar was the better man in a lot of ways) if he allowed the truth to sink in. Also it would make him more of a usurper. Instead she is idealized and made the victim or Rhaegar is villainized. Assuming it was not rape and abduction, of course!

Eulalia, you also raise an excellent point. The only person who refers to what happened with Lyanna as rape is Robert, told to Ned. Robert would need the Starks to press his advantage, and the only way he can hold the honorable Starks in his ploy for destroying all things Targ and claiming the Iron Throne is by making it a matter of honor. If the war is about rescuing Lyanna who has been so grievously wronged, raped, and otherwise abused, the Starks would absolutely have to rally to the aid of their own blood. If it were to be discovered that Lyanna, who had no affection for Robert, ran off with Rhaegar, then Robert's war on the Targs is nothing but petty revenge, something that the Starks would never stand for.

TK-421- I am in absolute full agreement with this statement. Cersei is nothing if not effective in ridding herself of unwanted [things].

 

[Koopa]

I'm pretty sure what made Ned call his banners was the fact that Aerys roasted his father and brother after they went and demanded that the targaryens give Lyanna back.(they probably did not know lyanna went voluntarily, she probably did not inform anyone of her actions).

Basically Lyanna eloping to screw a married guy, and said married guy being all for it, without either one taking the time to truly consult anyone/let anyone know the exact truth of their choice (at least that's what i believe they did) led to 'it' all.

Basically Lyanna and her thoughtlessness, set in the motion the scenario that got her eldest brother, and her father killed, forced eddard and his northmen to go to war (and marry that buffoon of a catelyn Tully in the process).And later got her own love killed, followed by the death of her love's legitimate wife Elia and her two innocent children. And so on.

You could call it karma that she presumably died during childbirth. Giving childbrith, not her death being in question.The again with all the crackpotting, one might make a casefor Lyanna still being alive. After all only ned and howland where present at the ToJ.
What 'face' could she have left after all that?

 

[devilsgrin]

Eulalia, you also raise an excellent point. The only person who refers to what happened with Lyanna as rape is Robert, told to Ned. Robert would need the Starks to press his advantage, and the only way he can hold the honorable Starks in his ploy for destroying all things Targ and claiming the Iron Throne is by making it a matter of honor. If the war is about rescuing Lyanna who has been so grievously wronged, raped, and otherwise abused, the Starks would absolutely have to rally to the aid of their own blood. If it were to be discovered that Lyanna, who had no affection for Robert, ran off with Rhaegar, then Robert's war on the Targs is nothing but petty revenge, something that the Starks would never stand for.

i honestly don't think that Ned, or his father and brother would have taken only Robert's word for "kidnapping and rape" before going to war. She very clearly was gone. she very clearly was gone with Rhaegar - a married Prince. Lord Rickard had every right to demand her return. The execution of both Rickard and Brandon - along with those who had accompanied them, lets not forget them, was more than anything the reason Ned was forced to call his banners. Lyanna, at that point, was incidental to the need to remove Aerys. The murderous execution of the Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North and Lord Paramount of the North was something none of those not total opportunists (re: Mace Tyrell (Olenna really) and Tywin Lannister) to see the need for the Targs to go.

At no point, whatsoever, is it made clear that Lyanna was unhappy with Robert. She KNEW exactly who he was, but that doesn't mean she didn't like him and wouldn't have been happy (enough) to marry him. I mean, Rhaegar was doing FAR worse than what Robert had done up til that point - he was married (WITH children), and either seduced and ran off with - or indeed kidnapped and raped (Targs ARE all rather mad afterall) another woman.

buffoon of a catelyn Tully

i thought everyone had gotten their Cat hate out years ago kiwi...

 

[Koopa]

Hah, i don't change opinions that easily.
Danaerys for example has a long way to go before i start liking her character.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Eulalia, you also raise an excellent point. The only person who refers to what happened with Lyanna as rape is Robert, told to Ned. Robert would need the Starks to press his advantage, and the only way he can hold the honorable Starks in his ploy for destroying all things Targ and claiming the Iron Throne is by making it a matter of honor.

I get what you are saying and it does certainly fit in the whole Game of Thrones intrigue scheme of things, but it doesn't fit Robert. Remember, when he was out riding with Ned early in the first book, he said something along the lines of wanting to go back to whoring, fighting and drinking, and away from the court intrigues. As a result, I really doubt that Robert would be capable of such a thing.

I love the way you think, but it's too much of a stretch.

I think most telling of what he really is like is the scene where he tells Ned to send a knife and a brave man to wield it after Daenerys. I know this arguement is a double-edged sword because it can be argued that Robert will do anything to kill a Targ, maybe even manipulation, but that's not just his style. His call for Dany's murder is more telling than anything. This shows just how willing he is to kill Targ straight up.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

The sense I got was that Robert really actually loved Lyanna. Call me naive and idealistic, but I think Ned might have been right about Robert being faithful once married to her...

 

[Koopa]

I think you are right if faithful means that he'd love her and only her.
It think you're wrong if faithful where to mean he stop wenching.

Does that make him better or worse than Rhaegar regarding on how he treats marriage and love?
I wouldn't know, both are pieces of works.

 

[TK-421]

Funny how the female characters cause certain reactions.

Cersei, Dany, Lyanna, Brienne, Catelyn, Asha, Lysa, Arianne...Just saying!

 

[devilsgrin]

Hah, i don't change opinions that easily.
Danaerys for example has a long way to go before i start liking her character.

On this point, we cannot be in more agreement. I find her loathesome as a person.

 

[devilsgrin]

Funny how the female characters cause certain reactions.

Cersei, Dany, Lyanna, Brienne, Catelyn, Asha, Lysa, Arianne...Just saying!

you definitely forgot Arya (who's POV i enjoy, i just cannot like her one bit) and Sansa (who has one of the most interesting POVs - since she witnesses SO many things - and grows SO much as a person) in this list. But, i don't know if i've seen much Arianne hating (i love her btw - she's fire, and passion, and indeed brilliance - Doran just had more information, which he should have shared with her years ago)

 

[TheBlackfish]

The main two i would choose are:

1)Roose Bolton- I really like how he can command a whole room with his soft voice. Another thing is how he manged to jump out of the losing side and in the process become warden of the north. I also quite like the idea of a 'Dreadfort'.

2) The Blackfish- He is very good in battle and he also has an incredible sense of humor for example loosing that arrow in to the horses rear and sending the Frey flying was comedy gold. I also like him because he is obviously a black sheep.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

After thinking about it for awhile Im going to take the plunge and say Sam. The life of a Maester is the most appealing to me and as a member of the Night's Watch he's already seen a great deal of adventure. The part about swearing off women isnt very appealing but we've already seen there are plenty of ways around that law.
Id love to sit before a fire and pour over old tomes at the Wall or in a Citadel tower.

 

[TK-421]

Id love to sit before a fire and pour over old tomes at the Wall or in a Citadel tower.

Or before a candle that does not flicker?

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I'd be a giant north of the Wall. Just lumbering around, eating mammoths, drinking beer I steal from the wildlings. Ah, the life.

 

[Eulalia]

I like Trey's plan. But I would be Aleras, young, rich, and in cognito.

 

[Lyanna Stark]

The main two i would choose are:

1)Roose Bolton- I really like how he can command a whole room with his soft voice. Another thing is how he manged to jump out of the losing side and in the process become warden of the north. I also quite like the idea of a 'Dreadfort'.

So here's the question: how do you feel about Bolton's pink cloak?

 

[TheBlackfish]

So here's the question: how do you feel about Bolton's pink cloak?

I think i could personally pull off the pink cloak, however im not sure the colour is the problem. The man with no skin is probally more of an issue.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I'm not sure if I should report a wish to be Roose Bolton as sociopathic behavior or not. He's certainly one of the most disturbing characters, though not nearly as bad as his son.