A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[Brian G Turner]

Re: Dany & Aegon - there's also the idea of not keeping all of your eggs in one basket. There would be little reason for Varys to invest so much in one Targ heir when there are so many natural ways they could die.

And if Varys was able to switch one of the babies, isn't it possible he also switched the other? Curious, though, how and when the switch took place - as soon as the gates were opened to Tywin?

 

[No One]

I've only just finished the book yesterday and am letting things sink in, but I agree with most/all of Brian's highlights above.

I'm glad to see the evidence of a storyline that's begun to taper - contrary to suggestions that GRRM has lost the plot and will require more than 7 books to complete the series.

Also, it can't have been easy to discipline the flow of events and revelations to try and quench the fans' thirst for answers and drama, which imo this book was never going to do (given the outline of 7 books and the title of the next book, that would be the one for major revelations and confrontations). So good on George for staying true to the story I say.

 

[HeirOfArryn]

ok Im new to posting but Ive been following these boards for the a while and I just noticed a few things in ADWD that I havent seen here.
1. when Tyrion and co were traveling down the sorrows right before they ran into The Kingfisher (the other barge) Tyrion notices this
"The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared."
What do you all make of this? I thought of Drogon but the book never mentioned him being spotted that far west and what would he be doing with them? smelling out his own kind?
2. I think Jon is dead for real. It pains me to say this but IIRC Thoros discovered how to revive Berric Donadarrion by accident and as far as I can tell, he is the only one who knows how to do that (other that Donadarrion but he sacrificed himself for cat, which was a bad move in my opinion)

and @JOVANENAD and Ursa major succession rules are discussed when first Stevron Frey, Lord Walder's eldest son, then Ryman Frey, Stevron's eldest son, were killed and the succession of The Twins passed to Edwyn Frey, Ryman's eldest. showing that sons come before brothers in the line of succession.

 

[HareBrain]

I finished DwD a couple of days ago, and although I didn't skim much of it and enjoyed reading most of it, I wasn't all that impressed with it as a story, not even as part of a longer story. Probably if I'd been able to go straight on to WoW, I would have looked upon DwD's flaws more charitably (as long as WoW redressed them), but as it is, I find it hard to disagree with a lot of the 2- and 3-star reviews on Amazon.

One thing I find interesting, though, is that it seems to be a book written for the age of the internet forum. There's far too much stuff in it for any one reader to keep track of all the foreshadowings and hints and history, unless they're prepared to keep copious notes. It needs a collective consciousness to make sense of what's going on in the background. And because of that, I think ASOIF disproportionately suits fans who are prepared to invest time in talking about it with others. Of course it's only right and proper that they should get more out of it than a casual reader, but it's starting to feel to me like a videogame where a high proportion of the good stuff is only available after you've already finished it once.

 

[Culhwch]

Interesting point, HB, and valid, I think. I'd never thought of it like that before...

I finished Dance a couple of nights back now, and I'm trying to decide how I feel about it. I really just don't know how far we progressed. So much filler. Interesting, well-written filler, as far as that goes, but it took a long time for anything really significant to happen.

What did we get? Tyrion travels towards Dany, doesn't quite make it. Meets Aegon, who is also travelling towards Dany, but doesn't make it. Goes to Westeros, immediately becomes something of a prat. Victarion travels towards Dany, doesn't make it, gets a new hand. Quentyn travels towards Dany, makes it, dies. Dany annoys pretty much everyone, brings ruin upon the city she is trying to save, locks her dragons up, and winds up still in bloody Meereen (or close enough) at the end. Jon negotiates with wildlings, negotiates some more with wildlings, lets wildlings through the Wall, angers most of his underlings, dies. Stannis decides to fight the Boltons, heads to Winterfell, doesn't quite make it. There was a lot of not quite making it in this book.

Although our visits with him were brief, at least Bran made it to where he was going. Arya too, to some degree. Jaime and Cersei appeared but made little progress. Davos's chapters were interesting - good to see that I was correct in my assumptions that his 'death' was all a Manderly ploy - but he has ever been my favourite character. Mance’s appearance in Winterfell was likewise interesting, and I wonder at his motivations in trying to save fake Arya (poor Jeyne, I felt sorry for her). Does he feel some sense of duty to Jon? I can’t think why – although does he know Jon sent his son away? Val knows, but did Val know Rattleshirt was Mance?

I do wonder where Martin goes from here. After two such expansive volumes as Feast and Dance, he is really going to need to reel everything in to finish in another two. I just don't know if that's possible (and it seems he doesn't, either). I'd be curious to know whether the storylines are continuing in the same direction as they were when there was to be a five-year gap after Storm. There would have to have been some changes - certainly Jon couldn't have 'died' off-screen, unless that was intended to happen later in the piece and was brought forward. Was Rickon to re-emerge as if from the dead (as Aegon has) to become the last Stark in the North? Thinking about this kind of makes me wonder if Martin did lose the threads of his original story, and is either trying to write his way back to it, or write his way to a satisfying alternate ending.

Still, I can't wait for tWoW. Hope it isn't a long wait...

 

[Ursa major]

Of course it's only right and proper that they should get more out of it than a casual reader, but it's starting to feel to me like a videogame where a high proportion of the good stuff is only available after you've already finished it once.

Except that not even GRRM has read it (i.e. the whole of ASoIaF) through once. And a lot of the threads here** are based, as they must be, on ignorance, in that they involve debates about what this and that phrase or idea in one of the books might come to mean.

Now while I can see this could still happen after the last book is published for some of the small, incidental stuff, most, if not all, of the big things will have been resolved. (We might then dislike*** these resolutions, and say so, but that's another matter.)




** - I've only been over to asoiaf.westeros.org a handful of times, and then only after finishing ADwD, so I can't comment on their threads

*** - I almost typed 'mislike'.

 

[HareBrain]

Now while I can see this could still happen after the last book is published for some of the small, incidental stuff, most, if not all, of the big things will have been resolved. (We might then dislike*** these resolutions, and say so, but that's another matter.)

Sorry, my analogy was rubbish. I probably should have compared it to a game where a lot of the good stuff is in the side-quests rather than the main plot, though that probably still wouldn't get across what I meant.

I suspect that very few who read the whole series for the first time after it's completed will be as fanatical about it as those who are really into it now, because it lends itself to such interesting speculation, competing theories, etc. And that does make me wonder if the way it's been written has been influenced by that. A couple of reviews I read suggested that plot twist X had been included to scotch rumour Y, and so on. Whether that's true or not, GRRM was aware of all the rumours, which in some way makes it an interactive project -- not between him and casual readers, but him and those interested enough to spend lots of time discussing it. Which (with the possible exception of Harry Potter) must make it almost a first for a closed-end series.

(Sorry if that's not well expressed. Too tired to judge.)

 

[Brian G Turner]

One thing I find interesting, though, is that it seems to be a book written for the age of the internet forum. There's far too much stuff in it for any one reader to keep track of all the foreshadowings and hints and history, unless they're prepared to keep copious notes.

Think we've been here before with Tolkien, decades before the internet.

Thinking about this kind of makes me wonder if Martin did lose the threads of his original story, and is either trying to write his way back to it, or write his way to a satisfying alternate ending.

This is very much what I got from reading ADWD, hence a particular reason for my liking it. As observed before, it didn't feel like it reached an "ending" but at least if felt as if it was trying to move back in that direction.

 

[viZion]

I finally finished the book last night. I wasn't disappointed but I wasn't satisfied, either. Like Culhwch points out, there's a lot of "not quite making it" in this book. After 6 years of writing this thing I thought the writing would be a lot tighter as well. Really, all that time and his editors still couldn't cut that thing down a bit? There was a lot of information that really didn't add anything to the story or the backstory. I'm not even talking about the expansive descriptions of food, either. There was one Tyrion chapter and one Daenerys chapter that could have been deleted entirely and nothing at all would have been lost from the story.

I think I liked Theon's chapters best in this book. Arya is always interesting to me, too. I also loved Barristan's chapters. Excellent choice to have him as a POV since he's so full of interesting AND relevant backstory. Bran didn't bore me to tears like he usually does so that's cool. I actually wish we could have gotten at least one more Bran chapter so that maybe we'd get a clearer idea of exactly what he's learning to become.

Jon's chapters were ok and I actually didn't mind that he was making tons of mistakes. It fits with his character. He's trying to be his father, his uncle Ben, and the leader of the Night's Watch all in one and those roles just don't complement each other. To be honest, I hope he dies and stays dead because GRRM seems to be getting to the point where it's obvious who is going to live. That was never the case in the first three books and I miss it.

Dany was easily the most frustrating character. Stupid mistake after stupid mistake. I don't think she made one wise decision. Statistically, she should have blundered into at least one wise decision but she continued to defy the odds. She used to be one of my favorite characters but somehow she became really weak in the 11 years since we last saw her. I she takes Khal Jhoqo's khalasar and finally gets the heck out of Meereen. The whole Meereen storyline seems like a big waste of time unless, instead of GRRM showing how Dany learns to be a Queen there, he's actually showing how she learns how NOT to be a Queen there. Even so, I wish that story arc would have resolved itself in this book and ended with Dany finally on her way back to Westeros to confront Aegon.

 

[HareBrain]

Think we've been here before with Tolkien, decades before the internet.

I think there's a huge difference between LOTR and ASOIF in this respect. It's hard to tell for sure, because I first read LOTR so long ago, but my impression is that it was fairly obvious, even on a first reading, which facts were "trivial" (intended only to enrich the world and background), and which were essential to a full understanding of the plot. When Aragorn makes his comment about Queen Beruthiel, it seems clear it's background colour only, and not something which, if remembered, will shed light on an obscure aspect of Minas Tirith politics. In ASOIF, for better or worse, you just can't tell.

There is, of course, a huge amount of background info that Tolkien wrote, and which does illuminate the events in the main story. But it's kept out of the way in the appendices (and in the Silmarillion) and is entirely optional.

 

[JOVANENAD]

I don't know why Viserys and Deny weren't educated in the same way as Aegon, but I can guess. Aegon, as the true heir** (see below), needed protection and Viserys and Dany were useful decoys, visible targets for Robert's ire that diverted him from looking for hidden ones.

In the case of inheriting power, it follows the first son, otherwise Stannis would have been the heir even if Joffrey had been Robert's. If there's a rule where the heir of the deceased heir is overlooked in favour of the heir's brother, I haven't noticed it, not in the books. (I'll admit that I may have missed it, so would be grateful if the relevant paragraphs could be identified.)


In the UK, some of whose history was one inspiration for ASoIaF, the crown can be inherited through dead intermediary once-heirs. If Prince Charles had died before his mother, and the Queen had died before Prince William came of age, we would have had a King William (and a regency) not a King Andrew.


** - Assuming he is the real Aegon.

I agree about the decoy part completely. As for the inheritance part I am not sure what to think, if we look at European medieval inheritance law we will see many examples where, when the eldest son inherits the throne and dies before his son(for example) reaches mature age the crown goes to his oldest brother BUT it is ensured by edicts that the crown will pass to late kings son and his offspring. But its not always god to make parallels. You are right in Westeros its all about the firstborn son. But if Dany and Vyseris were just decoys why put so much efort to mary Dany with Khal Drogo Illiro was expecting those 40000 Dothraki with Vyseris. And I don't think he would have liked the idea of having a cousin. Also why didn't Illirio told Baristan that Aegon was alive when he send him to Deny. But who knows what game Illirio and Varys are playing.

 

[Ursa major]

(Sorry if that's not well expressed. Too tired to judge.)

That was fine: I now see what you're getting at.

But if Dany and Vyseris were just decoys why put so much efort to mary Dany with Khal Drogo Illiro was expecting those 40000 Dothraki with Vyseris. And I don't think he would have liked the idea of having a cousin. Also why didn't Illirio told Baristan that Aegon was alive when he send him to Deny. But who knows what game Illirio and Varys are playing.

The threat that Drogo was seen** to pose is the key here. Although the Dothraki travelled as far west as Pentos, Drogo's power base was far away and generally impenetrable to spies, particularly those not controlled by Varys. But the court did know of Varys's spy and so would believe what Varys would say. And he would be saying what he wanted them to hear at just the right time to have the greatest effect, i.e. when Aegon was about to return and needed the biggest diversion possible. And such a diversion would be necessary. The bringing together of a force capable (with help from the locals***) of restoring the Targs to the Iron Throne would not go unnoticed, although no doubt Varys would have provided plausible explanations that had nothing to do with such a restoration.


** - I don't think the Dothraki were ever going to travel to Westeros. If we can take Varys's statement to Kevan at face value (difficult, isn't it?), I can't see him wanting Dothraki screamers laying waste to the Seven Kingdoms. I'm sure Drogo would have met his end at some point, with the same result as his actual death gave: the Dothrakis staying in Essos.

*** - Dorne****, plus the previous Targ kings allies, Highgarden.

**** - That Viserys was killed by the Dothraki was beneficial to the cause (I'm assuming Viserys was encouraged to join the trek east, whatever Illyrio says): Aegon had nothing to do with it. Dorne and Highgarden could have vied to provide Aegon's bride. (Dany would be the obvious choice for Queen, but she could have been tarred with the name of kinslayer, at least as long as help was needed fom Dorne and Highgarden. After that, all bets would be off.)

 

[cape_royds]

I'll start with my Dislikes:

1. I find the entire Aegon storyline dissatisfying. It seems almost like it was grafted on to the main plot. The effort in doing this major retrofit might be the reason for the very long delay in publishing ADWD, and the real reason why the division between AFFC and ADWD was made by POV, rather than chronologically.

It's not that you can't explain or justify the reed-basket escape of baby Aegon, or the exiled Connington's resurgence. It can logically be made to work. But it's all quite a stretch.

Or is it possible that a reader could actually feel a sort of jealousy of a new major character?

2. While the Selmy pov's aren't bad, on the whole the Meereen chapters make tedious reading. These chapters are not valueless, since Danaerys is learning, as did Robb Stark or Robert Baratheon, that there's a big difference between being a puissant warlord, and becoming an effective monarch. Unfortunately the reader is made to follow Dany's flailing efforts in close detail.

The biggest problem here is that the there are no really compelling Ghiscari characters or scenes, despite the quite considerable amount of description devoted to them. I also find that Dany's handmaids are too predictable--e.g. has Missandei or Irri ever given the reader a surprise? The implicit Orientalism in ASOIAF might be said to take a toll on the story itself. As a result, the Westerosi in Meereen just seem to be marking time against a background that is bland despite the exotic furnishings.

There were a whole bunch of people converging nicely on Dany (Marwyn, Victarion, Quentyn, Tyrion, and now also Prince Aegon the Unlikeliest) but instead GRRM chose to delay.

As Varys once said to Illyrio, "Make haste, even the finest juggler cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever." GRRM of course, as I'm sure Illyrio would agree, is no mere juggler, but a true sorceror!

3. A smaller complaint: I find it improbable that two or three thousand quality fighting men were still available in the North, who could, moreover, all be gathered together in one swoop. Sure, Cassel and Tallheart had been taken by surprise by the descent of the Ironmen and the treachery of Bolton, but why would they ever have been filling their ranks with the greenest boys in the first place, when real men could still be mustered from the hills? The only way I can justify it to myself is on account of the harvests.

4. Too many almost-deaths, too many "saving throws." It's no longer very suspenseful. More like, "Oh, now Tyrion fell in the river, I wonder who will pull him out?" or "Oh, Jonny got stabbed, I wonder how GRRM will make it so he lives?"

I never really believed that Davos or Brienne or Sandor perished.

But the thing that really sold me on this whole series, was when King Joffrey made poor Ned dance the funky chicken. "Aha!" I cried, "now this becomes truly interesting!"

5. I'm just a little bit disappointed that Jorah and Tyrion didn't get drunk together and share embarrassing ex-wife stories. "Tell me, where do whores go, Mormont?" Reply: "Imp, why don't you go ask Lynesse, she'd know all about it!"


Now for my likes:

1. Janos Slynt got the chop, and in fine style.

2. With Rorge, Biter, Hoat, & Tickler all gone, Ramsay Bolton proudly assumes the mantle of Number One Monster, even if GRRM does exhibit his long-suspected S & M tastes in some of the Theon chapters.

3. There is actually a whole volume in which a musician or singer doesn't get brutally tortured and murdered. There are only loving, wistful recollections of the scenes in which musicians or singers were brutally tortured or murdered--and the hint of another bard about to get flayed. I wonder whether GRRM once had a high-school sweetheart stolen by a guitar player or something, since ASOIAF is almost like Revenge of the Writer Against the Musicians.

4. Tyrion rides the Pig, while Cersei runs naked in the streets. Myrcella lost an ear. Kevan becomes further proof that King's Hand is the world's most dangerous job. GRRM makes the Lannisters suffer as cruelly as the Starks.

5. The fearful symmetry of the Sand Snakes sent out to work, each in the way best suited to her.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Well I finished the book last night and am still letting it all soak in. I'm just trying to go through all the threads and see what everyone else thought and noticed. I have to say overrall I was a bit disappointed. I agree with most things that Culhwch has said, I feel that the story somewhat got away from Martin in this book and it could have used some serious editing.

IThere would have to have been some changes - certainly Jon couldn't have 'died' off-screen, unless that was intended to happen later in the piece and was brought forward.

I just read an interview with GRRM last night where he stated the scenes with Jon and Melisandre were written 10 years ago, so I am assuming it was always supposed to be on-screen, though the placement within the story may have changed.

 

[Needle]

cape, I mostly agree with you except for this piece-

3. A smaller complaint: I find it improbable that two or three thousand quality fighting men were still available in the North, who could, moreover, all be gathered together in one swoop. Sure, Cassel and Tallheart had been taken by surprise by the descent of the Ironmen and the treachery of Bolton, but why would they ever have been filling their ranks with the greenest boys in the first place, when real men could still be mustered from the hills? The only way I can justify it to myself is on account of the harvests.

Here I would think they simply did not think it feasible that this clans could be convinced to fight together. Tyrion did the same basic thing with the mountain clans. It required a little bit of thinking outside the box. Most people would look at them and see small groups that are forever fighting each other, not a large number of born fighters to get on your side.

 

[Culhwch]

But then - Jon knew that the mountain clans would follow a strong leader, and that they were loyal to 'the Ned'. Surely Robb should have known the same - Jon and Robb both learnt at the elbow of Ned. Why then did Robb not think to enlist the help of the clans when he went south? He needed all the fighting men he could muster. This does seem to be a little bit of a hole in the plot...

 

[No One]

Just wildly throwing it out there, but maybe the Northern Lords wouldn't want the mountain clans claiming a share of the spoils (in Robb's case) or possibly assuming lands for themselves (in more recent cases)?

 

[purple_kathryn]

Enjoyed it overall but was abit frustrated as the story didn't move forward as much as I would've liked.

Especially as I really wanted Ramsay to be dead by the end of the book!

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I agree Kathryn. I thought for a book so large I would have liked to see the story progress a bit more.

 

[Needle]

But then - Jon knew that the mountain clans would follow a strong leader, and that they were loyal to 'the Ned'. Surely Robb should have known the same - Jon and Robb both learnt at the elbow of Ned. Why then did Robb not think to enlist the help of the clans when he went south? He needed all the fighting men he could muster. This does seem to be a little bit of a hole in the plot...

Robb may not have thought he really needed them, plus he was a little crazy at the time over the whole beheaded Ned thing!