Who will win The Game Of Thrones?

With all due respect, I disagree that GRRM is purposefully extending the series to extend his bankroll. I do agree that he's now enjoying financial success beyond his dreams when he imagined this story in the early nineties. The tale has grown in the telling. I probably misremember, but I think it was originally to be four books... then five... then six... then seven. Remember that he'd also planned a five year break after the third book, but that he could not make it work... so I believe he's filled in some spaces and tried to develop some characters and work in new ones in the meantime. As for the characters in question...

Aegon, son of Rhaegar, is mentioned fairly early in AGOT... and I think Aegon is the infant that Dany sees in the House of the Undying. Jon Connington is first mentioned in ACOK, if not AGOT... and he's mentioned a number of times in ASOS. It is my opinion that the story is so huge and the named characters number in the thousands that we tend to never notice the clues or else we forget them in the mass of information... and so we are surprised when characters and plots appear as if from necessity or desperation.

Would ASOIAF look the same if GRRM rewrote it now? Probably not. I'm sure he'd trim some fat and add other info at different points.

Mayhaps, AFFC and ADWD were not as fast paced as most would have liked. Yet, I believe that GRRM's motivation was to fill in the blanks and not to fill his pockets. I don't know the man... well, he signed two of my books and answered a question at a Denver book signing, but I cannot say that I know the man. I know his politics are the opposite of mine... and I'd guess that his religious views are not even close to mine.

It is my opinion that the appearances of Aegon and Connington have not come from need, but to push the pace of the story again. Dany is the only claimant to the Iron Throne of whom we have a POV. Connington gives us Aegon's story as Davos gives us Stannis' while Tyrion, Cersei, and Sansa gave us Joffrey's. I find Connington to be an intriguing character. He is intelligent, resourceful, loyal, and resolute. More importantly, he's a leader of men... a respected commander. He's a player only by necessity. In short, he's a lot like Eddard.

Eddard's POV gave us the tale of Robert. Eddard's men respected him. Robert trusted him. Eddard's loyalty cost him everything.

Enter Jon Connington... With his terminal illness, both his vengeance and justice are on short time tables. His experience, as the losing commander of the beginning of Robert's Rebellion, will serve him well. He will continue to be bold. He will not wait for the Lannisters to build an overwhelming coalition.

With Dany lost in the East... Illyrio and Doran may throw their full support behind behind Aegon. If Middlefinger is a Targaryen loyalist and not in it only for himself, he may support Aegon... I can see Sansa's marriage to Harry the Heir cancelled when Baelish finds out that Aegon is alive and single.

It is my personal opinion that Loras is not grossly injured and clinging to life in a sickbed... but, in fact is also on his way to find and woo Dany (I'm pretending that Quaithe forgot the Rose in her prophecy). This means that the Tyrells are still willing to be on the winning side. And even if Loras is not wooing Dany, the Tyrells still have Willas and have been known as staunch Targaryen supporters in the past. Mace is now the Hand and half the Small Council are Tyrell bannermen. With Kevan dead and Aegon announcing a Targaryen return, all Mace has to do is arrest Tommen and offer Margary to Aegon. She still claims to be thrice wed and never bedded... although the Faith may say something different.

So... I can picture the Vale, Dorne, and the Reach supporting Aegon. The Lannisters cannot match that. They control the Westerlands and they are supported by House Bolton in the North, but most of the Riverlords hate them... the exception being House Frey. The Stormlands are under attack and will not be supported unless the Hand or the Warden of the East gives it to them. The Hand is Mace and I dont' think he'll commit to action until he knows he'll be on the winning side. The Warden of the East is Jaime... who is missing. The Vale calls young Robert the true Warden, but I don't think that Baelish will commit to battle until he knows he'll win... and he may still decide to back Aegon. Don't forget that he is also Lord Paramount of the Trident, i.e. the Riverlords answer to him and if he calls for Lannister and Frey blood, they'll willingly oblige.

I know I've wanted to ignore Quaithe's prophecy, but she also has said since ACOK that Dany must go to Asshai. If that is true, then Dany will not get to Westeros until A Dream of Spring, the seventh book. I don't know what all will happen, but Aegon could win the throne well before Dany ever arrives. It may be that her story is that of TPTWP and AAR. She may sacrifice her claim to the Iron Throne to save the realm from The Other.

Who will win The Game of Thrones? is the title of the thread. The claimants, heirs are... Stannis, Daenerys, Aegon, Tommen, Myrcella, and Shireen. It is also my personal theory that Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, and Jon Snow are all bastards of Aerys II. I also believe that neither Baelish nor Margaery can be omitted from this list because of their aspirations to power.

I may change my mind later, but I think Connington will not need to marry Arianne to Aegon because the Martells will ally for vengeance. I think Margaery will want to get rid of Tommen and trade up for Aegon. I think the Tyrell plans will fall through when Baelish gets Aegon to marry Sansa. Faced with losing, the Tyrells will announce they were duped by the Lannisters and that Margaery never consumated any marriage with any Baratheon... Renly, Joffrey, or Tommen. Mace will then bend the knee. Cersei will flee to Casterly Rock... leaving Tommen to be executed. Jaime will ride to save Tommen as Barristan once went to save Aerys II, but Jaime will fail and die. Tyrion will ally himself with Aegon. He will kill Cersei and rule Casterly Rock. Connington will retire to Griffin's Roost. It does not matter what happens between Houses Frey, Bolton, Manderly, and Umber and their quarrels and alliances with Stannis. Many will die fighting. More will die from the winter. They'll get sorted out in the spring. All hail King Aegon, the sixth of his name. All hail Queen Sansa. All hail Lord Baelish, Hand of the King.
 
Okay, you wrote enough their to fill the 6th book in the series. Let me just pick one little bite-sized piece of your critique/theory:

"I know I've wanted to ignore Quaithe's prophecy, but she also has said since ACOK that Dany must go to Asshai. If that is true, then Dany will not get to Westeros until A Dream of Spring, the seventh book. "

Dany is currently riding a dragon. She could go to Asshai for breakfast and be back by dinner.
 
Ty, right. Of course she does not need to take Barristan, Missandei, Daario, the Unsullied, her Khalasar, her husband, and her entire court. I dunno 'bout one day... Drogon is not FedEx. But I think that turns a two or three year trip into less than a month.

By the way, my friend, I see your location has changed. Godspeed. My friend just got back from Afganistan last night. Drogon's got nothing on a Hercules.
 
Any info out there on whether Others are born or made? If one could be turned, I nominate Stannis--while fighting the Others he's captured, turned and rises as Other King. He's already cold, stiff and crabby--to the Others with him, I say!

And as for the harshing on the Dothraki fighting ability, true they would not fare well hacking away at knights or laying siege to a castle, but in the open field, I could so see them as the archer unit, a highly mobile archer unit at that; Unsullied as the infantry and the dragons burning everything to bits (hopefully starting with Stannis).

Sadly, I don't think my dragon riding dream team of Dany, Bran and Tyrion (with Jon leading the Van below) will come to be. To the best of my recollection prophesy=truth, right? Dany can't have children, which to me means she won't be allowed by GRRM to sit the throne or even be queen--what would be the point if no heirs could come to be? I'm worried her only purpose was to hatch those dragons and see them grown large enough to battle, either for the throne or as the only thing to save the kingdoms from the Others. So, if not Dany, then who?
There have been some great arguments for Sansa being involved and I'd say I'm leaning heavily in siding with them--she's got some sort of claim on nearly every one of the 7 kingdoms and there HAS to be a reason we've had to endure her for this long, right? But paired with?? Jon would be weird--grew up together and depending on your belief, half-brother at worst, cousin at best. No to Bran, Rickon. Aegon? I think the "Master" has been duped and he is NOT actually the switched before smashed babe.
Maybe the "Ice and Fire" of aSoIaF is not that the Targs rule, but that they SAVE the kingdoms, and the ice of Winterfell rises again, pairing Sansa with say Loras, uniting North and South?
 
GonnaNeedaBiggerBoat said:
Any info out there on whether Others are born or made? If one could be turned, I nominate Stannis--while fighting the Others he's captured, turned and rises as Other King. He's already cold, stiff and crabby--to the Others with him, I say!

And as for the harshing on the Dothraki fighting ability, true they would not fare well hacking away at knights or laying siege to a castle, but in the open field, I could so see them as the archer unit, a highly mobile archer unit at that; Unsullied as the infantry and the dragons burning everything to bits (hopefully starting with Stannis).

Sadly, I don't think my dragon riding dream team of Dany, Bran and Tyrion (with Jon leading the Van below) will come to be. To the best of my recollection prophesy=truth, right? Dany can't have children, which to me means she won't be allowed by GRRM to sit the throne or even be queen--what would be the point if no heirs could come to be? I'm worried her only purpose was to hatch those dragons and see them grown large enough to battle, either for the throne or as the only thing to save the kingdoms from the Others. So, if not Dany, then who?
There have been some great arguments for Sansa being involved and I'd say I'm leaning heavily in siding with them--she's got some sort of claim on nearly every one of the 7 kingdoms and there HAS to be a reason we've had to endure her for this long, right? But paired with?? Jon would be weird--grew up together and depending on your belief, half-brother at worst, cousin at best. No to Bran, Rickon. Aegon? I think the "Master" has been duped and he is NOT actually the switched before smashed babe.
Maybe the "Ice and Fire" of aSoIaF is not that the Targs rule, but that they SAVE the kingdoms, and the ice of Winterfell rises again, pairing Sansa with say Loras, uniting North and South?
Click to expand...

Covered a lot of bases there, let me try to reply.

There was a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch that may have married a (female?) Other. Read up on 'The Night's King'. I think that's an interesting point that you brought up that one of the players currently involved in the story might take that route. I could see Stannis... but having Jon Snow turn that way might be more entertaining/heart-wrenching.

Dany's womb "quickened" at the end of ADWD... she had her first period since the death of Drogo. Most of us see this as a sign that she may now be able to have children (read the words of the prophecy and you'll see that it doesn't exclude her becoming pregnant, it just lists that as one of the things that would have to happen before Khal Drogo could return).

I can't speak to the theories about the potted plant (Sansa). I think she has a role for character redemption on her own part, but I don't see her as on the same level of importance as Jon, Dany, Tyrion, or Bran.
 
Whilst I have this lovely picture of Jon Snow and Dany hooking up and living happily ever after with a handful of children, I can't see it happening, George is not that kind to us.

I don't think Sansa, Tyrion or Ceresi are destined for the throne, Stannis is my outside chance if he gets rid of the red Melissandra oh and the crazy wife. I can't see Ceresi making in through book six and much as I love Sansa and she has grown in character I doubt she has what it takes to rule the seven kingdoms. I'd like to think that Dany would gain the throne but she needs to get back on track. I can't wait to find out though.
 
I think you're all wrong, except tangaloomababe. Martin is a cruel and ruthless writer, and I suspect most of our most loved characters will be dead before this saga ends. The end will be complete, but wholly unsatisfying. If anyone sits the Iron Throne at the end of the series it will be neither a hero nor a villain.

I am reminded that Martin's original inspiration was the War of the Roses. The War of the Roses ended when a distant and previously unknown knight (Henry Tudor) inherited the Lancastrian claim, won the throne from Richard York the usurper (who was his nephew's regent until he stole his throne) and reunited the families by marrying Richard's neice, creating a new dynasty.

I think that's how it will play out. The real question is, who's York and who's Lancaster? The obvious answer might be that York = Stark and Lancaster = Lannister, but that depends where the war starts; it could be the two sides are Targaryen and Baratheon. Candidates for the neice are;

Stark - Sansa, Arya
Lannister - Myrcella
Baratheon - Myrcella, Shireen
Tygaryen - Danerys

I think one of these will become Queen, but who the Lancastrian will be is anyone's guess, as they were pretty obscure and only cropped up historically at the end of matters. As it currently stands there are two compelling candidates if history is followed;

Aegon - which would rule out Danerys as his Queen. This could work historically as Henry's claim was originally driven by his mother. Danerys is Aegon's aunt.

A more compelling candidate, however, is Jon Snow. Henry Tudor's claim to the throne was tenuous; it was through the female line, and through illegitimate birth. Sound familiar? This would rule out Danerys, Sansa and Arya as his wife.

What also works here is that Henry Tudor attempted to seize the throne twice. In his first attempt he was betrayed, and he had to flee, to assemble a second invasion. When Jon is betrayed at the end of the most recent book, it is as he's about to depart, having violated the Watch's neutrality and chosen a faction...
 
I am reminded of the pilot to Blackadder . . . yeah, I learned most of my English history from that series. :)

If Martin stays that close to his inspiration, Jon could marry an heiress (who would have a better claim like Elizabeth York to rule herself) and then marry his own child into a more legitimate (and powerful) line--which is why Henry VII's sons married Katherine of Aragon.
 
sorry asoiaf fans, can't resist...
does no one see the name of this thread and shout i will!

no? just me...

*leaves quietly*
 
Interesting stuff with the War of the Roses, but I'm thinking that even if GRRM is drawing heavily on another plot there's nothing to say he doesn't have a different ending in mind. Inspiration is one thing, and writing a historic novel is quite another.

When thinking about what characters might end up ruling the Seven Kingdoms, I think a lot about who would actually want to rule and not.

Daenerys wants to be a queen. She wants to be a good queen to her people, if they are good and loyal to her. She also has a good claim, and she's spent five books trying to become as competent a ruler as possible through trial and error. Even though I am not a huge Daenerys fan, I wouldn't mind her as some kind of ruling queen at the end. I'd like for her to be important somehow, and I hope she doesn't die - otherwise we've wasted (well, spent) a whole lot of time reading about her for very little payoff.

Jon Snow as he is right now doesn't want to be king, because he doesn't think he deserves it. He has spent the whole series being tormented about being a *******, and I think the key to his future lies in finding out his true parentage. If he is some sort of legitimate son to Rhaegar, I hope he takes that information and goes "f--k yeah!" and starts seeing himself in a new light. Maybe even start hating Ned a little for keeping it a secret. Even so, I think Jon belongs in the north. Seeing him in King's Landing would just be strange. I also think Jon would be bored out of his brains as king, even if he had a dragon to ride about on. Depending on what happens with the Wall, maybe he can stay Lord Commander of the Night's Watch with his pet wolf and dragon. That is, if there's a need for the NW by the end of it.

Tyrion would probably hate being king as well. He wants to be in a position with lots of power but without the smiling and waving at the crowd. I hope he ends up somewhere at the top. I can see him as Daenerys' husband and king, if she's the "Margaery" of that union. I believe his vast knowledge of dragons will lead him to be one of the heads of the dragon. I don't, however, think that he has Targaeryen blood. That being said, I've always kind of thought that Tyrion would end up with Casterly Rock, because he wanted it so badly, and because Tywin refused him it so vehemently.

I don't even know where I'm going with this anymore. I like the idea of the kingdoms being divided up. How about Rickon as King in the North with Jon as some sort of warden with a dragon (Viserion, obviously, matching nicely with Ghost). Tyrion in Casterly Rock and ruling the middle section with Rhaegal, and Daenerys ruling the south with Drogon.

It's been said again and again and again that the inbreeding of the Targs is a bad idea and even the wildlings understand that it's unhealthy, and that leads me to think that it won't be a brother and sister, or aunt and nephew, marrying and ruling together.
 
Always one for a happy ending I am tipping Brienne and Jamie at Casterly Rock. I agree with Yavannie that Jon will stay where he is now, my dream of a Jon / Dany union I think is just that.... A dream!
 
One thing that has occurred to me is that according to everything we've heard, winters can last years, and the White Walkers only emerged many years ago during one of the most severe winters ever.

Winter has only just begun in A Song Of Ice And Fire, and there's only two volumes left. Assuming Spring will begin at the end of the last book, as implied by the title and as makes sense logically, that would imply that either the last two books have to cover an obscenely great length of time (which defies the storytelling principal that the pace should accelerate as the story progresses), or this winter is going to be one of the shortest on record, which undermines the entire originating premise of the series.
 
Tywin said:
Covered a lot of bases there, let me try to reply.

There was a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch that may have married a (female?) Other. Read up on 'The Night's King'. I think that's an interesting point that you brought up that one of the players currently involved in the story might take that route. I could see Stannis... but having Jon Snow turn that way might be more entertaining/heart-wrenching.

Dany's womb "quickened" at the end of ADWD... she had her first period since the death of Drogo. Most of us see this as a sign that she may now be able to have children (read the words of the prophecy and you'll see that it doesn't exclude her becoming pregnant, it just lists that as one of the things that would have to happen before Khal Drogo could return).

I can't speak to the theories about the potted plant (Sansa). I think she has a role for character redemption on her own part, but I don't see her as on the same level of importance as Jon, Dany, Tyrion, or Bran.
Click to expand...

That's right! How could I have forgotten the period?? I think I read ADWD too quickly, I'll slow it down next time through.
Potted plant--awesome!!! Gotta "read up on the Knight's King"--Thanks Tywin
 
Gumboot said:
One thing that has occurred to me is that according to everything we've heard, winters can last years, and the White Walkers only emerged many years ago during one of the most severe winters ever.

Winter has only just begun in A Song Of Ice And Fire, and there's only two volumes left. Assuming Spring will begin at the end of the last book, as implied by the title and as makes sense logically, that would imply that either the last two books have to cover an obscenely great length of time (which defies the storytelling principal that the pace should accelerate as the story progresses), or this winter is going to be one of the shortest on record, which undermines the entire originating premise of the series.
Click to expand...

I think there's a passage in one of the books (can't remember where) debating whether the cold brings the Walkers or the Walkers bring the cold. If the Walkers bring the cold and they are destroyed then maybe it's also the end of winters?

Or it's possible that spring doesn't start at the end of the final book -- it is a Dream of Spring, after all.
 
joshrackley said:
I think there's a passage in one of the books (can't remember where) debating whether the cold brings the Walkers or the Walkers bring the cold. If the Walkers bring the cold and they are destroyed then maybe it's also the end of winters?

Or it's possible that spring doesn't start at the end of the final book -- it is a Dream of Spring, after all.
Click to expand...


I don't remember where this shows up but I'm pretty sure they debate that. I am with you in that if the Walkers are destroyed by the end of Dream, then winter might end prematurely. I also agree that the title a "dream" of spring doesn't mean winter will be over.

Yavannie said:
I don't even know where I'm going with this anymore. I like the idea of the kingdoms being divided up. How about Rickon as King in the North with Jon as some sort of warden with a dragon (Viserion, obviously, matching nicely with Ghost). Tyrion in Casterly Rock and ruling the middle section with Rhaegal, and Daenerys ruling the south with Drogon. .
Click to expand...

I like this idea too and posted it in another thread. Dragons brought the kingdoms together and Dragons will keep them together. If Dany, or at elast one of the heads of the dragon, doesn't sit the Iron throne, then there will be no Iron throne. There is also a chance that Dany will burn Kings Landing to thr ground and start fresh.

Rickon - King in the north
Victarion or Asha - King (Queen) of the Iron Islands
Arrienne - Warrior Queen of Dorne
Tyrion - King of the Westerlands and the Riverlands
Aegon or Connington - King of the stormlands
Little Finger - king of the Vale
I don't know about the Reach but screw it.

Dany and the 2 heads of the Dragons, Whomever they might be, will go beyond the wall, to the heart of winter, and melt it, bringing about the summer that never ends.
 
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