(Spoiler Alert) Why Jon Snow AA

[grip junky]

I hope their is no others vs. dragons. I hope that in the end the others stay north of the wall, because Jon and the NW did their job and the people to the south still think of them as tall tales.

I think of Daenery and Jon's storys as being at the sametime but separate, she will restore order south of the wall and he will restore it north of the wall. It could be done in two books if it was done in that way, and it would stick to the history of the place.

I am hoping for the same... I wouldn't mine if Dany and Jon never meet... ASOIAF... Jon the ice and Dany the fire... Both having their jobs to do...

I hope if GRRM realize he can't tie up all the loose ends and finish up things satisfactory, he don't shy away from adding another book...

I believe the Others will stay North of the wall... I can't see the Wall falling because it is such a huge part of Westoros... And if the Wall falls, Jon has failed... Unlike Winterfell which could be rebuilt... If the wall falls, it is gone for good. And that won't happen...[/QUOTE]

I hope you are right. If the wall comes down and the books become overwhelmed by dragons and magic, for me they will go from great to suck-fest.

 

[garion77]

I am hoping for the same... I wouldn't mine if Dany and Jon never meet... ASOIAF... Jon the ice and Dany the fire... Both having their jobs to do...

I hope if GRRM realize he can't tie up all the loose ends and finish up things satisfactory, he don't shy away from adding another book...

I believe the Others will stay North of the wall... I can't see the Wall falling because it is such a huge part of Westoros... And if the Wall falls, Jon has failed... Unlike Winterfell which could be rebuilt... If the wall falls, it is gone for good. And that won't happen...

I hope you are right. If the wall comes down and the books become overwhelmed by dragons and magic, for me they will go from great to suck-fest.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree... What make his book so good is it's not full of Dragons, Gods, magic, and kid fantasy characters... GRRM world is actually believeble and adult oriented... You start bringing in Dragons and super magic spells, I might as well read all the other million of fantasy books out there who authors master in that kind of stuff.

I want Dragons and magic to play as little as possible... That what GRRM said about his books... He only use a hint of magic and that's why the Dragons are small and will play very little in the outcomes of battles...

GRRM said his books is about the people and politics.... I hope he keep it that way...

 

[Timba]

At the risk of his potential rule I am with the Imp on this. Perhaps the wall does not fall but there is going to be some sort of major battle and I just cannot see how the depleted NW will deal with it without some sort of serious involvement of forces from the South, whether that be Dany and her dragons or Jamie with a large army behind him or whatever.
I am not as bothered by how the author will do this in 2 books, first the number of books may change and secondly, he is the author! He can change things with an informative prologue overview that covers a year or 2 or 3 and sets the stage for using the final 2 books to close the series. I certainly acknowledge that he has a lot of open story lines but a critical death here or there takes care of a lot of that and really if he has shown one thing it is that he is willing to kill of characters, NO MATTER HOW MUCH I LIKE THEM, so I leave it in his capable hands.
Having said all that I remain incredibly thankful for having discovered this forum. I have never been a forum junkie before but this is simply great reading, provocative ideas, amazing crackpot ideas. Good stuff, my thanks to all of you that make this such a rich place to come. Winter is coming!

 

[Tywin]

Having said all that I remain incredibly thankful for having discovered this forum. I have never been a forum junkie before but this is simply great reading, provocative ideas, amazing crackpot ideas. Good stuff, my thanks to all of you that make this such a rich place to come. Winter is coming!

Same here, I have never participated in fan forum before. I suppose that it is a tribute to the author and the type of people who find themselves most drawn to his story. Winter is coming indeed.

 

[NenadBulaja]

At the risk of his potential rule I am with the Imp on this. Perhaps the wall does not fall but there is going to be some sort of major battle and I just cannot see how the depleted NW will deal with it without some sort of serious involvement of forces from the South, whether that be Dany and her dragons or Jamie with a large army behind him or whatever.
I am not as bothered by how the author will do this in 2 books, first the number of books may change and secondly, he is the author! He can change things with an informative prologue overview that covers a year or 2 or 3 and sets the stage for using the final 2 books to close the series. I certainly acknowledge that he has a lot of open story lines but a critical death here or there takes care of a lot of that and really if he has shown one thing it is that he is willing to kill of characters, NO MATTER HOW MUCH I LIKE THEM, so I leave it in his capable hands.
Having said all that I remain incredibly thankful for having discovered this forum. I have never been a forum junkie before but this is simply great reading, provocative ideas, amazing crackpot ideas. Good stuff, my thanks to all of you that make this such a rich place to come. Winter is coming!

There is another possibility. I don't believe that decisive battle will be fought on the Wall, and it also don't have to be torn down. All the Others have to do is to find a way to go around it! The Wall has been built to keep the Others and the rest of the far North away from the lands further south, but since his foundation The Others actually NEVER attacked it openly, so we don't know how would he fare against them. And even if he proves unbreakable, there is plenty ways to go - under, around, or even above!

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

You know the deciding battle will be with dany riding jon warged drogon fighting the white walker king riding balarion the black dread come back wight style

 

[Young stormlord]

My reason why I think Jon Snow is Azor Ahai: R'hlor said so himself and Melissandre is blind like a leech.

Melisandre gazed into her fire and begged her god to show her AA. She sees Jon. She beggs her god again and again, every single day and fire keeps showing her Jon. Now, I think the reason fire kept showing her Stannis before is simple: self defence. The first thing priests learn to see in their fires is danger to themselves. Mel was by Stan's side all the time, any danger to befall him would end up killing her.

 

[garion77]

My reason why I think Jon Snow is Azor Ahai: R'hlor said so himself and Melissandre is blind like a leech.

Melisandre gazed into her fire and begged her god to show her AA. She sees Jon. She beggs her god again and again, every single day and fire keeps showing her Jon. Now, I think the reason fire kept showing her Stannis before is simple: self defence. The first thing priests learn to see in their fires is danger to themselves. Mel was by Stan's side all the time, any danger to befall him would end up killing her.

I have two theories about this... Rhallor might have shown Mel Stannis because he was her vessel to finding Jon... Mel needed Stannis to get to Jon... And since she is near Jon, Rhallor is showing her AA/Jon because Stannis isn't needed anymore...

My other theory is when Jon took the NW Oath, at that point he became AA... I don't think you can be AA without the Oath... And you can't be AA without Lightbringer which is really the Night Watch itself...

 

[Slovian]

All through my first read of the books I thought it was going to be important who Jon's mom was. But as I am rereading the first book I get the idea that it is not important at all.

I think it will be extremally important because plot was set early in Game of Thrones, and was continued in so many important moments (last moments of Ned in his cell). Google L+R=J theory and you will get your (most probably correct) answer.

 

[NenadBulaja]

First thing I thought of after reading AGoT was L+R=J theory. But after ADwD must say I believe it is wrong, GRRM leads his story in the way that most obvious thing is almost always the wrong one.

And that is the main reason that Jon may actually be AA, since all the clues so far led to Dany.

 

[The Imp]

First thing I thought of after reading AGoT was L+R=J theory. But after ADwD must say I believe it is wrong, GRRM leads his story in the way that most obvious thing is almost always the wrong one.

And that is the main reason that Jon may actually be AA, since all the clues so far led to Dany.

I don't think it's prudent to dismiss a thory because it seems too obvious. There are a number of events in aSoIaF that were really obvious after a re-read, or lengthy discussion on boards such as this one. For every person that thinks Dany is the "obvious" AA, you';; probably find someone who thinks that Jon is. You'll also find people who think that Aegon, Tyrion, and Rhaegar are/were. I personally choose Jon, mainly becuase i like the metaphor of the Night's Watch being Lightbringer better than Dany's Dragons being Lightbringer, but that's a personal choice.

 

[NenadBulaja]

It's not. And I tend to allow that anyone's opinion caries same weight as my own. But without any clue, since it is only discussed in forum's, and not something GRRM wrote, about Jon's true heritage, and considering that in prophecy about AA birth is one of the strongest clues. Jon being AA is unconfirmed theory based on unconfirmed theory that he will survive, and on personal choice of favored metaphor. While Dany is confirmed to be born on Dragonstone, in the place of smoke and salt, and then again in the funeral fire from the smoke as unburnt and shedding tears of salt... Lets just say my belief is that Dany is AA, and Lightbringer is yet to be shown.

 

[The Imp]

It's not. And I tend to allow that anyone's opinion caries same weight as my own. But without any clue, since it is only discussed in forum's, and not something GRRM wrote, about Jon's true heritage, and considering that in prophecy about AA birth is one of the strongest clues. Jon being AA is unconfirmed theory based on unconfirmed theory that he will survive, and on personal choice of favored metaphor. While Dany is confirmed to be born on Dragonstone, in the place of smoke and salt, and then again in the funeral fire from the smoke as unburnt and shedding tears of salt... Lets just say my belief is that Dany is AA, and Lightbringer is yet to be shown.

Dany is certainly a strong contender, and you make a good point about Dragonstone, but couldn't the same one be made about Aegon? Assuming he's lgitimate.

Theories are fun to discuss, and no one is right or wrong until we see it in print. For me it adds layers of interest to the series that wouldn't be there otherwise. I think that the complexity and myriad possibilites are a testament to GRRM's writing ability.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Even if real, Aegon is born in King's Landing. Birth part of the prophecy gives strongest support to theories about Dany or Jon being AA (during his murder his wounds were smoking, Bowen Marsh cried tears of salt, banner above him was Ser Patrek's bloody star), if he is reborn that is.

Yes, this is something we can agree on completely. I am looking forward to each and every of the discussions about the work of my favored author and my favored fantasy series. And wouldn't dream of questioning GRRM's writing abilities.

 

[The Imp]

Even if real, Aegon is born in King's Landing. Birth part of the prophecy gives strongest support to theories about Dany or Jon being AA (during his murder his wounds were smoking, Bowen Marsh cried tears of salt, banner above him was Ser Patrek bloody star), if he is reborn that is.

Yes, this is something we can agree on completely. I am looking forward to each and every of the discussions about the work of my favored author and my favored fantasy series. And wouldn't dream of questioning GRRM's writing abilities.

you're right, Aegon was born in KL, so forget what I said about him As for the smoke coming out of the wound, back in the first bran chapter GRRM uses the word smoke to describe the steam coming off the wolf kill. He MAY have done that to mislead or confuse or maybe he just uses the words smoke and steam interchangeably.

 

[Needle]

I am totally unsure as to who AA will prove to be, but I am beginning to lean toward Jon. The idea that the NW is Lightbringer feels right and as I have said before if R+L=J is true, and I'm convinced it is, we know nothing about the circumstances of Jon's birth, could have been smoke and salt galore!

 

[Tywin]

Another thought on the NW being lightbringer: Wasn't the original Lightbringer tempered in the blood of the wife of the original wielder's wife when he killed her? I think I remember reading that, but I'm not sure where (a little help here, anyone?)

If I am remembering that correctly, and the NW is Jon's Lightbringer, then the blood of Ygritte when the NW killed her would be the parallel event here.

 

[garion77]

It's not. And I tend to allow that anyone's opinion caries same weight as my own. But without any clue, since it is only discussed in forum's, and not something GRRM wrote, about Jon's true heritage, and considering that in prophecy about AA birth is one of the strongest clues. Jon being AA is unconfirmed theory based on unconfirmed theory that he will survive, and on personal choice of favored metaphor. While Dany is confirmed to be born on Dragonstone, in the place of smoke and salt, and then again in the funeral fire from the smoke as unburnt and shedding tears of salt... Lets just say my belief is that Dany is AA, and Lightbringer is yet to be shown.

NenadBulaja, read the NW oath and tell me what you hear in it... Out of all the oaths people make from Knights to Kingguards to Rainbowguards, the Night Watch oath is the only one repeated. When GRRM wrote that oath, it was important to the story...

Why I feel Dany isn't AA because the battle with the Others was a Northern war... The Targaryen wasn't even in the Seven Kingdom when the Others first appeared... I can't see Dany flying in with her Dragons saving Jon butt from the Others. No more than I can see Jon showing up in Meeren or Kings Landing to save Dany from her enemies.

Jon will defeat or at least stop the Others WITHOUT Dany having to save the day... It would make all he has been doing completely a waste of time if in the end Dany is going to save him... Why spend so much time developing Jon's character and leadership if Dany come swooping in to save the day...

Read the Oath below and tell me what you hear... It completely describe Lightbringer and what it was forged to do...

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

 

[garion77]

Another thought on the NW being lightbringer: Wasn't the original Lightbringer tempered in the blood of the wife of the original wielder's wife when he killed her? I think I remember reading that, but I'm not sure where (a little help here, anyone?)

If I am remembering that correctly, and the NW is Jon's Lightbringer, then the blood of Ygritte when the NW killed her would be the parallel event here.

Agreed... I thought once Ygritte died, her name would have faded from the series like so many others who died... But Jon can't get her out of his mind... Why did GRRM feel it was so important for Jon to meet a wildling woman kissed by fire? I am sure there were other red heads running around but he put a lot of importance in pointing that out in her...

I believe the whole AA thrusting his sword throw Nissa Nissa heart is just a figure of speech... You can't temple a sword with heart blood... But AA did break Nissa Nissa Heart when he rode off to fight the Darkness. Just like Jon broke Ygritte heart when he wouldn't turn against the Night's Watch...

Both men chose duty over love...

And something else I noticed in the Oath... I shall take no wife... Did AA love for Nissa Nissa almost cause the hero of legend to turn his back on the world? Is that's why the NW can't take any wife? Was AA the first NW? Did he form the NW and wrote the Oath when others joined his army?

 

[NenadBulaja]

Wow... an avalanche. Let me try my best to defend my reasoning.

First of all, I didn't say that Jon isn't AA, just that in my opinion Dany is more likely candidate.

Every hero needs to make sacrifice great enough to prove his worth. In AA case he decided to kill his beloved wife in order to save the world. Yigrrite doesn't compare, if Jon is AA, the greater sacrifice is coming his way, who could it be I cannot begin to guess.

At the moment NW can be compared to the Lightbringer only in the sense that it is failing his AA (Jon) in every aspect as Lightbringer did, before great hero decided to temper it in the blood of innocent woman. Oath they take sounds very poetic, but let's check some facts: At the beginning of the books, sworn brother runs FROM the Others instead fighting them and protecting the realm, Mance Ryder betrays his oaths and becomes King-beyond-the-wall, Sworn brothers rebel and kill old Bear while running away from wraiths, even Jon betrays the oath taking a spear-wife. Sworn brothers, in the very least, try to kill Jon - their Lord Commander. Where is this in the oaths? If NW is to become the Lightbringer, something must be DRASTICALLY changed in the way they fulfill their oaths.

Everything that I read so far in ASoIaF goes to one point - DON'T BE FOOLED BY GREAT WORDS. Words are wind. GRRM is maester of words, and he is using them to conjure better glamours than Mel.