(Spoiler Alert) Why Jon Snow AA

[garion77]

I just think Jon is AA and how GRRM make it all fit, I am not sure... Jon bringing half Targaryen, It could be but not sure... Jon don't have any Targaryen features at all... But I don't think GRRM ever describe any of Rhaegar's other children... Did they have the silver hair of the Targaryens? Jon have strong Stark features but it's nothing about him that say Targaryen...

And I read some post saying that Aegon could be false... I don't think he is because Tyrion figured out who he was... And he was being sent to meet Dany before he changed his mind. And you can't fake the Targaryen silver hair... It's what set them apart from all others...

 

[Ursa major]

I don't quite get what you're saying here. If Ned is Jon's father then it makes perfect sense to name him after Jon Arryn. Ned looked up to Jon Arryn like a second father. Maybe I'm misunderstanding...

I was thinking that the baby, whose ever it is, whoever it is, was born when Ned wasn't around and that the mother named him Jon.

Given that it was a time of war, and Ned couldn't even spare the time to visit his wife, he'd hardly be hanging around the fisherman's daughter, even if she did help to save him nine months before. I'm not even sure how he would learn of her pregnancy. Where would the message be sent? (The best I can think of is that she arrived at The Eyrie - well, the Gates of the Moon - as the pregnancy reached its term and let it be known that her child's father was of noble birth.)

 

[IWargedYourMother]

The reality is... Practically ever main character in the series has had one/if not several very clear references to the whole "Smoke and salt...etc etc" thing... Jon is the most likely candidate... Dany in second (if it IS dany.. I'll stop reading the books as she is undoubtedly my least favorite character...) Arguements could be made for Davos...(Basically died during that battle... Water was filled with wildFIRE..Water was salty...) Victarion....(They're on a boat in the SEA... His hand "Smoked") Its just GRRM teasing us into speculation...Jon is my personal pick for it , but.... It wouldnt surprise me to have it literally be ANY other character in the book...

As for his "death" , I hadn't consider the idea of some sort of numbing poison...Considering his POV ends with " He never felt the fourth knife...." It could be pheasable that he actually DIDNT die...and was just made to seem dead...Which i like alot more then the whole "ZOMG MEL RESURRECTION GOGO" idea.

 

[Timba]

That's too much Dany... If she do all of that, it makes everyone else useless... Why even write seven books that end with a Dany riding her huge Dragons to burn everyone up? It wasn't the Targaryens who stood against the Others... It was the Children, North, and NW...

Jon will handle the Others... Dany with unite the Seven Kingdoms... One person doing everything is just too David Eddings... I enjoyed his books as a teenager and when I first started reading fantasy... I use to enjoy reading about an all power figure who had a all power weapon that can beat everything... But I grew out of that...

What I like about GRRM books is the whole idea of the NW... These aren't noble sons or shiny teeth princes... These were some nasty guys who murdered and raped... These guys probably murdered and raped children... Can you imagine the WORLD being saved by the scum of the earth? Not some nobles who never tell a lie?

I think many people are looking for the noble savior... They want Dany to come to the rescue with her Targaryen blood... They want Jon to become a Stark so he will be a legitimate noble and can sit at the high table...

But what if the world is save by ordinary men who had passes that wasn't anything noble... And what if these ordinary men was lead by a *******?

Wouldn't that be interesting?

I get your point but it seems to me if there is one lesson that GRRM pounds at over and over again it is that nobles are not necessarily noble and common folk are not necessarily common so he has already made that point over and over again.

Without the dragons being involved in fighting the Others (and why does that have to be at the wall as that point of view presupposes they cannot get past an understaffed, underfed, under talented crew of misfits, malcontents and criminals making the Others not much of a bogeyman at all) they are left to simply be involved in roasting the people on one side or another in the South. Maybe I am all wet but I think the need will be to unify the South and then lead it to join with what remains of the North and throw the Others back, beyond the wall, to wherever they reside between winters.

 

[Tywin]

On the subject of Jon's parentage and whether or not he should have the silver hair of the Targaryens, I would argue that the Stark blood seems to be older and more established, having been the Kings in the North for thousands of years which pre-dates the Targaryens and likely Valyria itself.

This is not a scientifically valid explanation for the passing of genes, but it would be an artistically valid reason from the point of view of the author, especially if we take the explanation that Jon is the child of 'Ice' and 'Fire'. Everyone seems to presuppose that 'Fire' takes primacy and 'Ice' is just a sideshow whereas they are probably equals and GRRM will need to do something to remind the reader (and the characters in the books) of that.

 

[The Imp]

On the subject of Jon's parentage and whether or not he should have the silver hair of the Targaryens, I would argue that the Stark blood seems to be older and more established, having been the Kings in the North for thousands of years which pre-dates the Targaryens and likely Valyria itself.

This is not a scientifically valid explanation for the passing of genes, but it would be an artistically valid reason from the point of view of the author, especially if we take the explanation that Jon is the child of 'Ice' and 'Fire'. Everyone seems to presuppose that 'Fire' takes primacy and 'Ice' is just a sideshow whereas they are probably equals and GRRM will need to do something to remind the reader (and the characters in the books) of that.

I think you're correct, and scientifically, my GUESS would be that silver hair might be a recessive gne in the same way that blond hair is, and it would be inlikely(if not impossible) that the offspring of R+L would have silver hair. GRRM actually pounds this into our heads with the whole Robert's bastards having black hair thing that ned investigates.

 

[garion77]

I think you're correct, and scientifically, my GUESS would be that silver hair might be a recessive gne in the same way that blond hair is, and it would be inlikely(if not impossible) that the offspring of R+L would have silver hair. GRRM actually pounds this into our heads with the whole Robert's bastards having black hair thing that ned investigates.

Yes GRRM did pound that in our heads... That Joff and the other children should have black hair... All the Barantheon is dark of hair... Just like all the Targaryen are silver of hair... Starks hair come in different colors... Sansa and Robb had Tully hair... But ALL the Barantheon and Targaryen are marked by their hair color... GRRM made that perfectly clear...

When you see a Targaryen, it isn't any doubt it's a Targaryen... Not one Targaryen had hair other then silver... And since they have not invented DNA test yet, the hair is all we have to go by...

 

[zmorgas]

Not all Targaryen had silver hair. There were a lot of Targs in "The Hedge Knight", but some of them had brown hair with silver streaks or something like that... Baelor's or Maekar's hair was like that, but I can't remember if their mother was a Targaryen or not. If she wasn't, maybe it's analogical to Jon's situation.

 

[viZion]

Without the dragons being involved in fighting the Others (and why does that have to be at the wall as that point of view presupposes they cannot get past an understaffed, underfed, under talented crew of misfits, malcontents and criminals making the Others not much of a bogeyman at all)

It's not really the people at the Wall holding back the Others, it's the Wall itself. They can't cross it due to whatever magically imbued powers it has. The Wall could come crashing down though!

 

[Tywin]

The Wall could come crashing down though!

It's going to have to if we want to have any plot where the others matter. At this point I find myself wondering why we have a Night Watch considering the wall itself would apparently do the job fine without them.

 

[Ursa major]

Well, we know that Wildings can climb over the wall, we know that dead Wildings can be made into Wights and we know that Wights can operate on the southern side of the Wall. So Westeros does need the NW.

 

[garion77]

It's going to have to if we want to have any plot where the others matter. At this point I find myself wondering why we have a Night Watch considering the wall itself would apparently do the job fine without them.

I think without the NW, the wall can't stand. The NW was created not to keep the wildling out... It was created to keep the Others out... It was just lost over time... The children understood the Others will return... The humans are the one who forgot... The NW start being used to exile lords and to get rid of prisoners...

Everyone forgot the purpose of the NW including the NW... The oath of the NW have power in it... It's something about that oath...

And the Others will not cross the wall... If the Others cross the wall, it's no way to stop them... Dragons or no dragons...

Jon will stop the Other along with the NW... They will do their job and purpose...

 

[Tywin]

And the Others will not cross the wall... If the Others cross the wall, it's no way to stop them... Dragons or no dragons...

As I understand the powers in play in the universe of GRRM, the Others can't cross the wall because of the magic of the wall itself. The NW could all go on a field trip to Dorne, take a cruise to Pentos, and party on Illyrio's estates, and the Others would still be stuck North of the Wall unable to cross. This begs the question: Why was the Night Watch created? Was it just to build/maintain the wall?

 

[garion77]

As I understand the powers in play in the universe of GRRM, the Others can't cross the wall because of the magic of the wall itself. The NW could all go on a field trip to Dorne, take a cruise to Pentos, and party on Illyrio's estates, and the Others would still be stuck North of the Wall unable to cross. This begs the question: Why was the Night Watch created? Was it just to build/maintain the wall?

I don't know about the Others themselves but the wights can surely pass behind the wall... Jon saved Lord Mormont life from a wight that was trying to kill him. So the Wall don't completely defend itself...

So the NW is needed and always will be needed... They are the true heroes of the books. People still can't get over the fact that some rag tag bunch of thieves, murderers, and rapist will save the world...

In almost every fantasy series, it's always been some king or larger than life figures who saved the day. But I don't think that will happen this time. GRRM is truly a genius... He dedicated a lot of chapters to the wall... The wall will stand and the NW will be returned to it former glory...

Jon will make sure of that... He already made the NW self sufficient by getting a loan from the Iron Bank... He using the Wildlings to replendish the NW ranks for centuries to come. And Jon is even letting women serve on the wall... Something never done before...

I got a feeling in the future the wall will not be accepting murders and rapist anymore... They won't need to...

 

[Needle]

The wight that tried to kill Mormont was a dead body brought to the south side of the wall by the NW.

 

[Timba]

As I understand the powers in play in the universe of GRRM, the Others can't cross the wall because of the magic of the wall itself. The NW could all go on a field trip to Dorne, take a cruise to Pentos, and party on Illyrio's estates, and the Others would still be stuck North of the Wall unable to cross. This begs the question: Why was the Night Watch created? Was it just to build/maintain the wall?

Can you refer me to where you are getting this idea? I remember the wall having some real magic in it but I really do not recall that including the others being unable to pass the wall. What the heck would be the purpose of the NW if that was the case? Surely the wildings do not represent a grave enough threat by themselves, until Mance they could not stop killing each other and really even with Mance did not stop that completely.

It just seems to be the barrier is two fold, the wall and its magic and the NW but at this point the NW is a pale imitation of itself even with the addition of the Wildings and Stannis's folks.

 

[garion77]

The wight that tried to kill Mormont was a dead body brought to the south side of the wall by the NW.

It don't matter who brought it on the other side of the wall... The wight was able to survive the wall... And all wights are dead bodies...

 

[garion77]

Can you refer me to where you are getting this idea? I remember the wall having some real magic in it but I really do not recall that including the others being unable to pass the wall. What the heck would be the purpose of the NW if that was the case? Surely the wildings do not represent a grave enough threat by themselves, until Mance they could not stop killing each other and really even with Mance did not stop that completely.

It just seems to be the barrier is two fold, the wall and its magic and the NW but at this point the NW is a pale imitation of itself even with the addition of the Wildings and Stannis's folks.

I don't remember seeing anything either that said the Others couldn't pass the wall... I always thought it was the NW who keep them from crossing the wall... The wall have magic but I don't think strong enough to stop the Others from crossing without the NW...

It's a reason for the NW and it's never were for stopping Wildlings... The NW were formed to stop the Others...

 

[viZion]

Maybe I'm wrong about the Others not being able to cross the Wall. I could have sworn Cold Hands mentioned that to Bran when they first met.

But that still doesn't answer the question about the purpose of the Night's Watch. Up until Sam accidentally discovered that obsidian kills the Others, the NW had no way of actually killing an Other. How could they possibly defend against them? We know fire keeps them away but with so much of the Wall unmanned it would have been easy for the Others to cross just like the Wildlings used to do all the time unless there was some other magical power keeping them back.

 

[The Imp]

Maybe I'm wrong about the Others not being able to cross the Wall. I could have sworn Cold Hands mentioned that to Bran when they first met.

But that still doesn't answer the question about the purpose of the Night's Watch. Up until Sam accidentally discovered that obsidian kills the Others, the NW had no way of actually killing an Other. How could they possibly defend against them? We know fire keeps them away but with so much of the Wall unmanned it would have been easy for the Others to cross just like the Wildlings used to do all the time unless there was some other magical power keeping them back.

I think that the Wall needs to be manned by humans. They can be rapists, pedophiles, thieves, whatever. People need toaybe it's something about the magic that the Wall contains, combined with the life force of living men