(Spoiler Alert) Why Jon Snow AA

[Ursa major]

To repeat what I said above:

Well, we know that Wildings can climb over the wall, we know that dead Wildings can be made into Wights and we know that Wights can operate on the southern side of the Wall. So Westeros does need the NW.

While the Others may not be able to pass through or over the Wall (or across the sea**, given that the Wall ends at the coasts), those that they control obviously can. And they can (only?) be (re-)killed by using a fire. The Wall cannot wield a torch. That requires a person.

(In a way, defence against the Others and their creatures is an example of Ice and Fire working in tandem.)


** - This begs the question of what happens if the seas along the coasts freeze over.

 

[Tywin]

While the Others may not be able to pass through or over the Wall (or across the sea**, given that the Wall ends at the coasts), those that they control obviously can.

I disagree. They had to be brought through the wall by men of the NW. If they could cross on their own why wouldn't they just climb it like the Wildlings do?

 

[Needle]

Coldhands did tell Bran that the Wall held magic which kept the wights from crossing. It does matter that the wight that attacked Mormount was brought across by the NW! They were just dead bodies, not wights! Whether whatever controls them comes and goes as it pleases or just had not entered yet, I don't know. They cannot cross over or through the wall! The NW is indeed needed though because there is nothing to stop them from going around it, as Ursa said the sea at least near the coast is freezing over. Also I see no reason why enough of them could not break the wall and cross that way.

On a side note the Wall may be why Jon's dead bodies have not turned, they are stored beneath the Wall itself, the ones' bought back that attacked Mormount where keep in one of the buildings, not in the Wall cells.

 

[Tywin]

That's true, although the intelligent nature of their attack on Mormont led me to believe when I read it that it was some kind of plan of theirs to wait until the NW had carried them beyond the wall before becoming animated.

It could be that they are intelligent enough to know that becoming animated in their cells would not accomplish anything (except maybe to give the NW more intelligence on how they operate and how to kill them).

 

[Needle]

It has been said that they seem to retain some memory, maybe who they don't like or who is in charge, that kind of thing. I am however of the belief that they are not really individuals with the ability to decide much of anything. IMO they are controlled by (insert creepy music here!) something else!

 

[The Imp]

FOr the conspiracy theorists among us (me being one of them), I found this quote to be interesting

Hodor was tearing eagerly at a chunk of hot charred flesh as blood and grease ran down into his beard. Wisps of smoke rose from between his fingers.

GRRM seems to use the words steam and smoke interchangably, unless he was messing with our heads.

This is also interesting. it's Bran referring to Coldhands. It suggests that the combination of the NW and the Wall is needed to keep the undead out.


"He’s dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he’s some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night’s Watch stay true, that’s what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

 

[garion77]

FOr the conspiracy theorists among us (me being one of them), I found this quote to be interesting

Hodor was tearing eagerly at a chunk of hot charred flesh as blood and grease ran down into his beard. Wisps of smoke rose from between his fingers.

GRRM seems to use the words steam and smoke interchangably, unless he was messing with our heads.

This is also interesting. it's Bran referring to Coldhands. It suggests that the combination of the NW and the Wall is needed to keep the undead out.


"He’s dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he’s some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night’s Watch stay true, that’s what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

As long as the NW stay true to their oath... The wall is nothing without the NW... It's not the wall that makes the NW... It's the NW that make the wall...

The NW and the wall is like peanut butter and jelly... They just go together...LOL

 

[Tywin]

I tend to think it was more of a miss-step by the author. He made the wall too powerful to need the Night's Watch, and he's too enamored with the Night's Watch to not make them a pivotal part in the story (or more specifically to not make them doing exciting things in the story).

Now GRRM is stuck needing to invent some way to negate what he's already written. My money is on a super-weapon that destroys the wall.

 

[Ursa major]

We've known about a supposed super-weapon for quite some time: the Horn of Winter, aka the Horn of Joramun.

 

[The Imp]

We've known about a supposed super-weapon for quite some time: the Horn of Winter, aka the Horn of Joramun.

The Horn was burned by Mel in aDWD, BUT, I have always contended that the little crappy cracked horn that was with the dragonglass arrowheads and daggers (the on that Ghost uncoverered) is the real Horn of Winter, and Sam unknowingly has in his possession the true horn that can bring down the Wall.

That's my story and i'm sticking to it. The basis for it is classic misdirection by GRRM- distract us the beautiful assistant while the magician pulls the wool over our collective eyes.

 

[Mesanna]

The Horn was burned by Mel in aDWD, BUT, I have always contended that the little crappy cracked horn that was with the dragonglass arrowheads and daggers (the on that Ghost uncoverered) is the real Horn of Winter, and Sam unknowingly has in his possession the true horn that can bring down the Wall.

That's my story and i'm sticking to it. The basis for it is classic misdirection by GRRM- distract us the beautiful assistant while the magician pulls the wool over our collective eyes.

Yeah, I think this is a sound theory.

I have an image in my head of Sam returning to the Wall and sitting in the mess hall listening to some musicians playing after dinner one night. Full of wine and drunken encouragements from his fellow officers, he decides to join the jam session and gives his horn a little toot. Next thing ....



CRASH!!!

The look on his face would be absolutely priceless! (Sorry, I'm so easily amused! )

 

[garion77]

Yeah, I think this is a sound theory.

I have an image in my head of Sam returning to the Wall and sitting in the mess hall listening to some musicians playing after dinner one night. Full of wine and drunken encouragements from his fellow officers, he decides to join the jam session and gives his horn a little toot. Next thing ....



CRASH!!!

The look on his face would be absolutely priceless! (Sorry, I'm so easily amused! )

The wall will never fall... If the Others get pass the wall, it's all over... It's no way they could be stopped once they mix with the general population... At least in just two books... If there was about 5 books left, GRRM could pull it off... But with two books left and tons of plots to close, it's no way...

GRRM will need to speed the story along very fast in the next two books... A all out Other invasion isn't going to happen. It's just not enough space to do that...

And mass killing characters we have grown to love or hate just to make a Other invasion happen wouldn't make sense...

GRRM will end things with class... At least I hope...

 

[The Imp]

The wall will never fall... If the Others get pass the wall, it's all over... It's no way they could be stopped once they mix with the general population... At least in just two books... If there was about 5 books left, GRRM could pull it off... But with two books left and tons of plots to close, it's no way...

GRRM will need to speed the story along very fast in the next two books... A all out Other invasion isn't going to happen. It's just not enough space to do that...

And mass killing characters we have grown to love or hate just to make a Other invasion happen wouldn't make sense...

GRRM will end things with class... At least I hope...

With all due respect, given all of the foreshadowing, there at least has to be the possibility that the Wall will be destroyed, or at the least, breached. What would be the point of having The Others milling aroung, gnashing their teeth and twirling their mustaches if the NW could just stand on top of the Wall and laugh at them? I'm also not convinced that The Others would be unstoppable if the Wall WAS breached and they got through. Dragonglass kills them, and maybe dragon fire, although we can't be sure of the latter. I respect your strong opinion, but I don't accept it as a given or fact.

 

[garion77]

With all due respect, given all of the foreshadowing, there at least has to be the possibility that the Wall will be destroyed, or at the least, breached. What would be the point of having The Others milling aroung, gnashing their teeth and twirling their mustaches if the NW could just stand on top of the Wall and laugh at them? I'm also not convinced that The Others would be unstoppable if the Wall WAS breached and they got through. Dragonglass kills them, and maybe dragon fire, although we can't be sure of the latter. I respect your strong opinion, but I don't accept it as a given or fact.

I can't see the Others being stop with Dragonglass or Dragon fire if they mix in the general population... Unless you going to commit genicide... The Others are like a virus... Jumping from one host to another... You kill one and another pop up... So you will be constantly fighting your falling...

In Other words, the Others are like zombies... Their numbers grow as the fight go on... You can kill zombies by shooting them in the head but in the end, their numbers are too much when mixed in a general population... And what is even worse about the Others, they can turn animals... Zombies only effect humans...

It would take only a few Others to turn a city like KL into a killing ground... It would be impossible to root them out before they turn most of the town to wrigts...

But maybe I am looking too deep and must remember this is a fantasy book... Logic has nothing to do wth it...LOL

GRRM will decide what happens... Maybe his last book is called "A Dream of Spring" because everyone will be praying that winter ends so the Others onslaught will end...

 

[The Imp]

I can't see the Others being stop with Dragonglass or Dragon fire if they mix in the general population... Unless you going to commit genicide... The Others are like a virus... Jumping from one host to another... You kill one and another pop up... So you will be constantly fighting your falling...

In Other words, the Others are like zombies... Their numbers grow as the fight go on... You can kill zombies by shooting them in the head but in the end, their numbers are too much when mixed in a general population... And what is even worse about the Others, they can turn animals... Zombies only effect humans...

It would take only a few Others to turn a city like KL into a killing ground... It would be impossible to root them out before they turn most of the town to wrigts...

But maybe I am looking too deep and must remember this is a fantasy book... Logic has nothing to do wth it...LOL

GRRM will decide what happens... Maybe his last book is called "A Dream of Spring" because everyone will be praying that winter ends so the Others onslaught will end...

Maybe my idea of The Others is incorrect, but I see them as being necromancers that can raise the dead. They are the supernatural beings that we meet in the very first chapter of aGoT. Their power lies in their abilityh to create an undead army that they can control. This was why Jon was so anxious to get the wildlings to the wall, so the fewer bodies could be raised, and their potential army would be smaller.

There is clearly a lot we don't know about them, in fact, we know next to nothing other than what we've heard in folk tales from people such as Old Nan, but I think their ability to raise the dead was made clear in the aforementioned prolgue, and we know that they can control them. We also know that dragonglass and fire are things that their raised minions don't like, so it would seem that Dany's dragons and an undead army might be a match made in heaven (if you want the Others to lose).

 

[viZion]

The Others aren't like zombies. For simplicity, they are a separate race. They can raise the dead but they don't go around inhabiting the dead or jumping from body to body. Your understanding of what an Other is is off here, Garion. The Wall is coming down at some point. There are plenty of threads that discuss it here. The Others aren't invincible though. Obsidian kills them. Fire kills their wights. We don't know *for sure* that dragon fire kills them but I think it's a solid bet to say that it does when you consider the name of the series (which, I know, can refer to many things) and the fact that the dragons are also such a central part of the story.

I just don't know how he's going to get the story to the point where we have the Others vs. dragons or whatever in only two books. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Hm, ok, I should have read Imp's post above me before writing all of this.

Long story short: I agree with Imp.

 

[Tywin]

Long story short: I agree with Imp.

Yes, there's a lot of that going around. It's a good thing that he's a stunted abomination, otherwise he might grow to rule us all.

 

[grip junky]

I just don't know how he's going to get the story to the point where we have the Others vs. dragons or whatever in only two books. I guess we'll have to wait and see.[/QUOTE]

I hope their is no others vs. dragons. I hope that in the end the others stay north of the wall, because Jon and the NW did their job and the people to the south still think of them as tall tales.

I think of Daenery and Jon's storys as being at the sametime but separate, she will restore order south of the wall and he will restore it north of the wall. It could be done in two books if it was done in that way, and it would stick to the history of the place.

 

[grip junky]

All through my first read of the books I thought it was going to be important who Jon's mom was. But as I am rereading the first book I get the idea that it is not important at all. As a member of the NW no one cares. The NW has freed him of being a Snow, or a Stark. I hope that the last two books come back to that.

 

[garion77]

I just don't know how he's going to get the story to the point where we have the Others vs. dragons or whatever in only two books. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I hope their is no others vs. dragons. I hope that in the end the others stay north of the wall, because Jon and the NW did their job and the people to the south still think of them as tall tales.

I think of Daenery and Jon's storys as being at the sametime but separate, she will restore order south of the wall and he will restore it north of the wall. It could be done in two books if it was done in that way, and it would stick to the history of the place.[/QUOTE]

I am hoping for the same... I wouldn't mine if Dany and Jon never meet... ASOIAF... Jon the ice and Dany the fire... Both having their jobs to do...

I hope if GRRM realize he can't tie up all the loose ends and finish up things satisfactory, he don't shy away from adding another book...

I believe the Others will stay North of the wall... I can't see the Wall falling because it is such a huge part of Westoros... And if the Wall falls, Jon has failed... Unlike Winterfell which could be rebuilt... If the wall falls, it is gone for good. And that won't happen...