The Winds of Winter publishing date guesses?

[Anushka Mokosh]

I also believe that they do things with little input from GRRM, he seems to moan too much about the people they have killed in the show that are alive In the books. Also one of the older tyrell brothers is due to play a big part in the upcoming books, he has never been mentioned in the show.

Willas Tyrell actually doesn't exist as Loras is the sole heir of Highgarden.

Also, apparently, Arienne is cut out too.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

yeah, the show has changed much from the books. I doubt they would make a change as important as who AAR is, but still, they have made some significant changes. The producers have an idea of where and how the books are going to end, but nothing is set in stone.

And martin does not have that much controll over the show.

Fitcherman, I do not mean to insult, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but ham is just ham.

 

[Fitcherman]

yeah, the show has changed much from the books. I doubt they would make a change as important as who AAR is, but still, they have made some significant changes. The producers have an idea of where and how the books are going to end, but nothing is set in stone.

And martin does not have that much controll over the show.

Fitcherman, I do not mean to insult, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but ham is just ham.

Nope. This guy that I've mentioned on the forums several times, Dorian the Historian, who comes up with a lot of these theories, called the Ham thing before it even happened. He already thought there was a strong possibility that Jaime was Azor Ahai.

With the Renly - Stannis pre-battle scene, many fans were looking forward to the peach scene, where Renly offers Stannis a peach and Stannis is insulted by it. The producers even teased us by having Renly eating a peach in his tent, but come Renly-Stannis talk time, there was no peach. What did we get instead? The back and forth between Melisandre and Renly about Azor Ahai, salt and smoke, and HAM.

This Dorian the Historian guy said right then, that if Jaime was eating a Ham at his re-birth dinner, it was sealed. And sure enough, come time for Jaime's dinner and there was the Ham.

You can ignore the obvious and call that coincidence or whatever you like, but the odds of the producers adding the Ham line AND having Ham served at Jaime's dinner, and for it to all just be pointless, no way.

The producers of the show know how the series is going to end up and they added those details to those scenes for a reason.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

The producers of the show know how the series is going to end up and they added those details to those scenes for a reason.

Misdirection? Maybe Sam Tarley is AA reborn. He has been called Lord Ham, when he is in training, one of the other recruits says he is going to slice himself off a piece of ham, and Sam and Ham even rhyme.

You may be right, Jaime may end up being AA reborn, but I think you are making connections where there are none and I thinkyou are puitting too much stock in the theories of Dorian the Historian.

 

[Fitcherman]

Misdirection? Maybe Sam Tarley is AA reborn. He has been called Lord Ham, when he is in training, one of the other recruits says he is going to slice himself off a piece of ham, and Sam and Ham even rhyme.

You may be right, Jaime may end up being AA reborn, but I think you are making connections where there are none and I thinkyou are puitting too much stock in the theories of Dorian the Historian.

But Jaime can fit into the Azor Ahai prophecy. I've never heard of a legitimate case for Sam being Azor Ahai, so I'm not sure if you're just trolling or you are serious about him. If you are serious, please share how he fits into the prophecy.

I'm not necessarily putting too much stock in Dorian's theories. I put my belief behind theories that make the most sense for the series/author. At this point, Jaime makes the most sense, followed by Jon and Dany. The main thing here is, Jon and Dany are the common fan beliefs, and George Martin knows this because he put in all the hints that people are swallowing. Martin rarely goes the predictable route.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I wouldn't call it trolling (though some might). I don't actually think Sam is AA reborn, I was just trying to point out that the Ham connection (which I will forever refer to it as) is not proof. I think a good case could be made for Jaime being AA, at it would certainly be an interesting turn of events. The man with Sh*t of honor ends up being the saviour of the realm. I would like to see how Jaime fits into the AA prophecy though. What is the smoke and salt? (and I swear, if you say ham...)

Martin can certainly be relied upon to do the unexpected, but I also think there is a good case for him laying groundwork early on and foreshadowing events that end up coming true. It is hard to determine what are the actual hints and what can be counted as misdirection, and we will never know until the big reveal.

 

[Fitcherman]

I wouldn't call it trolling (though some might). I don't actually think Sam is AA reborn, I was just trying to point out that the Ham connection (which I will forever refer to it as) is not proof. I think a good case could be made for Jaime being AA, at it would certainly be an interesting turn of events. The man with Sh*t of honor ends up being the saviour of the realm. I would like to see how Jaime fits into the AA prophecy though. What is the smoke and salt? (and I swear, if you say ham...)

Martin can certainly be relied upon to do the unexpected, but I also think there is a good case for him laying groundwork early on and foreshadowing events that end up coming true. It is hard to determine what are the actual hints and what can be counted as misdirection, and we will never know until the big reveal.

"When Oberyn Martell dies and Bran meets the Three-Eyed Crow, Jaime Lannister will be freed from prison after dinner and a bath".

Also note how heavy the smoke was in that bath scene with Jaime and Brienne in the show and how Jaime passed out.

http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/

There is the link to Dorian's page if anyone wants to read the full description about how Jaime fits into the Azor Ahai role. This is his theory. It is under his second post called "Jaime, Azor Ahai, and the God of War."

Of course, if you've never thought of it happening like this, it is bound to seem ridiculous. But if you give it some thought it really makes a lot of sense and there are just too many hints to ignore.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I will grant you that there are some interesting theories in that link, especially in regards to the red star/Oberyn Martell, that is an interesting link that I hadn't made. My main concern with Dorian's theory is when he says "Steam represents smoke", then he just moves on as though that should be taken at his word. Steam is not the same as smoke. You could as well say that clouds represent smoke. The problem with prophesies, and Martin makes this problem really clear in the books, is that you can force them to mean anything, or you can make anything be the fulfillment. If you want to prove a certain character fulfills the prophecy, you can find the clues that fit it.

For example, following Dorian's arguments let me try to say that Tyrion is AA. lets say the first 2 are correct (and again, I like these linkages)

Oberyn Martell is the Red Star that bleeds
Bran meeting the 3 eyed crow is the gathering darkness
Tyrion is AA, and he is freed from prison (literally) getting a second lease on life, he also gets "reborn" amidst Salt (the sea) and Smoke (the black clouds of a huge storm) after which he decides he wants to live.

And I would also like to point out that these happen in chronological order and fit better (IMO) than Dorian's examples with Jaime. WHEN the Red Star Bleeds. If that is Oberyn Martell, and Jaime's being "reborn" happens with Roose Bolton, then that would mean he was reborn before the Red Star Bleeds, wheras Tyrion literally got his rebirth as a direct result of Oberyn Martell's death. If Oberyn had lived, tyrion would have stayed in KL, or gone back to the Rock, where he would still be Tyrion Lannister, however, with the Death of Oberyn, tyrion literally had to become someone else, Hugor Hill/Yollo.

I think if Jaime is AA (and I'm not saying he isn't) then his rebirth still needs to happen, but luckily he has a chance to do so as he is in the hands of Brienne/Stoneheart.

 

[Ursa major]

I'm not sure if you're just trolling

I'm not sure I've seen any genuine member (as opposed to those who appear only to disappear without trace) trolling on the Chrons, and we definitely do not accuse others of trolling.

The Chrons way -- and we enforce it, if necessary -- is to play the ball, not the man or woman.

 

[Pedro Del Mar]

Does AA have to be male? How do we know it isn't a female? What if it's a real surprise and turns out to be Sansa?

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

AA could also be Dany.

 

[Pedro Del Mar]

I regularly have a look at GRRM's notablog to see if there are any hints as to where he's up with with TWOW. Unfortunately, in this regard I've no news but one thing I've noticed is that this month he's posted much less often than usual. I'm hoping he's busy writing........

 

[Fitcherman]

Does AA have to be male? How do we know it isn't a female? What if it's a real surprise and turns out to be Sansa?

No Azor Ahai does not have to be a male. Dany is one of the leading contenders and is a female. I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that it could be Sansa though, unless you have found some.

 

[Fitcherman]

AA could also be Dany.

Azor Ahai could definitely be Dany and that is why she is one of the leading popular theories for that prophecy along with Jon Snow and Stannis Baratheon. But the fact that it is a leading theory, makes it all the more unlikely in my opinion, as we all know how George Martin rarely goes the predictable route.

 

[Fitcherman]

I will grant you that there are some interesting theories in that link, especially in regards to the red star/Oberyn Martell, that is an interesting link that I hadn't made. My main concern with Dorian's theory is when he says "Steam represents smoke", then he just moves on as though that should be taken at his word. Steam is not the same as smoke. You could as well say that clouds represent smoke. The problem with prophesies, and Martin makes this problem really clear in the books, is that you can force them to mean anything, or you can make anything be the fulfillment. If you want to prove a certain character fulfills the prophecy, you can find the clues that fit it.

For example, following Dorian's arguments let me try to say that Tyrion is AA. lets say the first 2 are correct (and again, I like these linkages)

Oberyn Martell is the Red Star that bleeds
Bran meeting the 3 eyed crow is the gathering darkness
Tyrion is AA, and he is freed from prison (literally) getting a second lease on life, he also gets "reborn" amidst Salt (the sea) and Smoke (the black clouds of a huge storm) after which he decides he wants to live.

And I would also like to point out that these happen in chronological order and fit better (IMO) than Dorian's examples with Jaime. WHEN the Red Star Bleeds. If that is Oberyn Martell, and Jaime's being "reborn" happens with Roose Bolton, then that would mean he was reborn before the Red Star Bleeds, wheras Tyrion literally got his rebirth as a direct result of Oberyn Martell's death. If Oberyn had lived, tyrion would have stayed in KL, or gone back to the Rock, where he would still be Tyrion Lannister, however, with the Death of Oberyn, tyrion literally had to become someone else, Hugor Hill/Yollo.

I think if Jaime is AA (and I'm not saying he isn't) then his rebirth still needs to happen, but luckily he has a chance to do so as he is in the hands of Brienne/Stoneheart.

I agree that the timeline of those events is questionable. That was my main concern with Dorian's theory. But as we know, time in George Martin's books is not always what it seems. Just because one chapter takes place after the other does not mean those events took place right after the previous chapter.

If Jaime is Azor Ahai, I think his rebirth has definitely already happened. The changes that occurred with him after he lost his hand were drastic and I have never quite seen a transformation like that in a book series, both mentally and physically.

 

[Werthead]

An interesting collection of all available info on TWoW so far.

It's interesting that compared to ADWD, even the wilderness years when GRRM was reluctant to say anything at all about the book, his updating for TWoW has been almost completely non-existent. We're now at two years since the last concrete update on the book's progress.

 

[Boaz]

You da man, Wert.

 

[Koopa]

hmmm, ham.. lol.
the lenghts some theories go to.
Then again, good ham always has it's uses.

It would tie in with Cersei dying by Jaime's hand.

So anyone knows if the name AA references to something?
Or is it a name he made up after he cut himself with the r-azor whilst looking for batteries?

 

[Pedro Del Mar]

An interesting collection of all available info on TWoW so far.

It's interesting that compared to ADWD, even the wilderness years when GRRM was reluctant to say anything at all about the book, his updating for TWoW has been almost completely non-existent. We're now at two years since the last concrete update on the book's progress.

Thanks Wert, very interesting to see all this in one place. Shame that GRRM hasn't given any concrete update on his progress for such a long period.

Also disappointing to read his publisher says there's no planned release for 2015.

 

[Boaz]

Well, GRRM learned from AFFC. He gave plenty of updates... but he was overly optimistic and he got negative reaction for it. So now he's keeping mum so as not to anger his readers... and he's getting negative reactions. Poor guy cannot win. To make it worse, last year he said he's positive he'll finish book six before season six... In order to win, he'd have to say April 2016 (to coincide with HBO's sixth season) and just go with whatever he's written, whether he's satisfied or not. Speaking for myself, I do not want an unfinished product. He'll finish when he finishes...

It's like going to work for your first day (or a big meeting or to close a deal), but there's an accident on the road and you're stuck in traffic. It is frustrating, but you'll get there when you get there. The world wont' end. You won't die. The anticipated results seem devastating... but who knows? Maybe a coworker comes through for you. Maybe your client is stuck in the same traffic jam as you. Maybe the same thing happened to your boss once and he completely understands. You'll get there when you get there... and you'll need a positive attitude and a clear head when you do.

Martin will finish when he finishes. I can't do anything about it. But I'll enjoy his books much more if I just relax and let him do his job.

At least this is what I tell myself... I'm fairly impatient. Especially while driving.