The Winds of Winter publishing date guesses?

The question from me isn't "will it ever be finished?" It's "will it even matter at this point?"

I'm sorry, but the final season of GOT did major damage both to the books and to R.R.'s reputation. So many people I know have abandoned the series and Martin in general over this. Unless Winds of Winter turns out to be at least a top 5 of all time fantasy novel, it cannot undo HBO's blunder.

That last season is pretty much cannon in the eyes of many. George would have to flip the genre on its head with the next offering to salvage things.
 
The books and the show are completely different beasts as far as I'm concerned. It's not a mystery why the last couple seasons of GOT were bad/not great, and source material wasn't the issue (except possibly the lack thereof). GRRM certainly has his own faults as a writer, but they don't strike me as similar to the faults the show had.
 
The books and the show are completely different beasts as far as I'm concerned. It's not a mystery why the last couple seasons of GOT were bad/not great, and source material wasn't the issue (except possibly the lack thereof). GRRM certainly has his own faults as a writer, but they don't strike me as similar to the faults the show had.
To the hardcore fan, probably not an issue. But think of the millions of casual fans who do consider them intertwined. You know how social media is; the jump on the bandwagon fans from the show will rain misery on the book.
 
The ASOIAF sub reddit has in the last year gained a significant number of new members who never intended to read the books but did purely because the last series of the show was so disappointing
 
To the hardcore fan, probably not an issue. But think of the millions of casual fans who do consider them intertwined. You know how social media is; the jump on the bandwagon fans from the show will rain misery on the book.
I suppose for most people who read to the end of Dance with Dragons that seeing the TV series, that had little writing to follow from GRRM, would not stop them reading Winds of Winter. But indeed the last season may have put off new readers from starting the book series. I expect if only half of Dance with Dragons readers reads Winds of Winter it would still be a big money spinner.
 
How many chapters is this book??
When you have two updates about getting through a chunk of chapters in a short time, after years of writing others, and still say a long, long way to go..
It seems he is doing at least around a chapter a week for the last two months.
 
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How many chapters is this book??
When you have two updates about getting through a chunk of chapters in a short time, after years of writing others, and still say a long, long way to go..
It seems he is doing at least around a chapter a week for the last two months.

Actually he is making it all up and trolling his fans. There is no book!
 
How many chapters is this book??
When you have two updates about getting through a chunk of chapters in a short time, after years of writing others, and still say a long, long way to go..
It seems he is doing at least around a chapter a week for the last two months.

AGoT had 73 chapters, ACoK had 70, ASoS had 82, AFFC had 46 and ADWD had 73 again. So, discounting AFFC which was assembled differently to the rest, it'll likely be between 70 and 80 chapters. If TWoW ends up being significantly longer than the earlier books, it could be closer to 90.
 
@svalbard Martin has struck gold, but can't mine it quickly enough.

Don't forget to enjoy reading the discussions here, talking about it, conjecturing about theories.... 'cause once ADOS is published, all the anticipation, discussion, and mystery are over.
 
On I don't know about that Boaz, I think when the series ends there'll be a fair amount of questions left unanswered
 
From George on August 15...

I am back in my fortress of solitude again, my isolated mountain cabin. I’d returned to Santa Fe for a short visit, to spend some time with Parris, deal with some local business that had piled up during my months away, and of course fulfill my duties to CoNZealand, the virtual worldcon. But all that is behind me now, and I am back on the mountain again… which means I am back in Westeros again, once more moving ahead with WINDS OF WINTER.

It is curious how my life has evolved. I mean, once upon a time, I actually wrote my books and stories in the house where I lived, in a home office. But some decades ago, wanting more solitude, I bought the house across the street and made THAT my writer’s retreat. No longer would I write all day in my red flannel bathrobe; now I would have to dress and put on shoes and walk all the way across the street to write. But that worked for a while.

Things started getting busier, though. So busy that I needed a full-time assistant. Then the office house had someone else in it, not just me and my characters. And then I hired a second assistant, and a third, and… there was more mail, more email, more phone calls (we put in a new phone system), more people coming by. By now I am up to five assistants… and somewhere in there I also acquired a movie theatre, a bookstore, a charitable foundation, investments, a business manager… and…

Despite all the help, I was drowning till I found the mountain cabin.

My life up here is very boring, it must be said. Truth be told, I hardly can be said to have a life. I have one assistant with me at all times (minions, I call them). The assistants do two-week shifts, and have to stay in quarantine at home before starting a shift. Everyone morning I wake up and go straight to the computer, where my minion brings me coffee (I am utterly useless and incoherent without my morning coffee) and juice, and sometimes a light breakfast. Then I start to write. Sometimes I stay at it until dark. Other days I break off in late afternoon to answer emails or return urgent phone calls. My assistant brings me food and drink from time to time. When I finally break off for the day, usually around sunset, there’s dinner. Then we watch television or screen a movie. The wi-fi sucks up on the mountain, though, so the choices are limited. Some nights I read instead. I always read a bit before going to sleep; when a book really grabs hold of me, I may read half the night, but that’s rare.

I sleep. The next day, I wake up, and do the same. The next day, the next day, the next day. Before Covid, I would usually get out once a week or so to eat at a restaurant or go to the movies. That all ended in March. Since then, weeks and months go by when I never leave the cabin, or see another human being except whoever is on duty that week. I lose track of what day it is, what week it is, what month it is. The time seems to by very fast. It is now August, and I don’t know what happened to July.

But it is good for the writing.

And you know, now that I reflect on it, I am coming to realize that has always been my pattern. I moved to Santa Fe at the end of 1979, from Dubuque, Iowa. My first marriage broke up just before that move, so I arrived in my new house alone, in a town where I knew almost no one. Roger Zelazny was here, and he became a great friend and mentor, but Roger was married with small kids, so I really did not see him often. There was no fandom in Santa Fe; that was all down in Albuquerque, an hour away. I went to the club meetings every month, but that was only one night a month, and required two hours on the road. And I had no job to meet new people. My job was in the back room at the house on Declovina Street, so that was where I spent my days. At night, I watched television. Alone. Sometimes I went to the movies. Alone.

That was my life from December 1979 through September 1981, when Parris finally moved to Santa Fe, following Denvention. (Not quite so bleak, maybe, I did make some local friends by late 1980 and early 1981, but it was a slow process). When I think back on my life in 1980-1981, the memories seem to be made up entirely of conventions, interspersed with episodes of LOU GRANT and WKRP IN CINCINNATI.

Ah, but work wise, that same period was tremendously productive for me. Lisa and I finished WINDHAVEN during that time, Gardner and I did a lot of work on “Shadow Twin,” and then I went right on and wrote all of FEVRE DREAM. Some short stories as well. My life, such that it was, was lived in my head, and on the page.

I wonder if it is the same for other writers? Or is it just me? I wonder if I will ever figure out the secret of having a life and writing a book at the very same time.

I certainly have not figured it out to date.

For the nonce, it is what it is. My life is at home, on hold, and I am spending the days in Westeros with my pals Mel and Sam and Vic and Ty. And that girl with no name, over there in Braavos.

I think this means he's feeling optimistic and enjoying the process/discipline of creating...
 
Is he enjoying or not? I guess so, as he has chosen the solitary route.

Part of his Aug 26 blog:
Dwelling where I am now, deep in the heart of Westeros, I find myself surrounded by my characters, the children of my mind and heart and soul. They are real to me, as I write them, and I struggle to make them real to my readers as well. All of them are flawed, from the best to the worst. They do heroic things, they do selfish things. Some are strong and some are weak, some smart and some stupid. The smartest may do stupid things. The bravest may have moments when their courage fails. Great harms may be done from the noblest motives, great good from motives vile and venal. Life is like that, and art should reflect that, if it is to remain true. Ours is a world of contradiction and unintended consequences.
Boromir is my favorite member of the Fellowship. The tragic hero. "

Perhaps George sees himself as a tragic hero.
 
Is he enjoying or not? I guess so, as he has chosen the solitary route.

Part of his Aug 26 blog:
Dwelling where I am now, deep in the heart of Westeros, I find myself surrounded by my characters, the children of my mind and heart and soul. They are real to me, as I write them, and I struggle to make them real to my readers as well. All of them are flawed, from the best to the worst. They do heroic things, they do selfish things. Some are strong and some are weak, some smart and some stupid. The smartest may do stupid things. The bravest may have moments when their courage fails. Great harms may be done from the noblest motives, great good from motives vile and venal. Life is like that, and art should reflect that, if it is to remain true. Ours is a world of contradiction and unintended consequences.
Boromir is my favorite member of the Fellowship. The tragic hero. "

Perhaps George sees himself as a tragic hero.

That's a reference to the Hugo Awards, which George presented and was heavily criticised for lionising writers whose legacy had recently been reconsidered due to their negative traits. The name of the John W. Campbell Award was changed last year to the Astounding Award after the degree to which Campbell had used his power to block authors of colour from getting their work published or even writing about black characters (with a couple of exceptions) was revealed, and the World Fantasy Award changed its trophy from a bust to Lovecraft to something else once it was discussed that Lovecraft had been a virulent anti-semite, racist and homophobe and these views permeated his works.

Martin's viewpoint was that these are correct facts but both writers also did good in their lives and their work was inspiring to many (including himself) and that a fairer assessment of their careers include judging them in a wider context. His critics pointed out that for decades both writers (and many others who engaged in behaviour that might be judged criminal today, including Asimov and Clarke) had been effectively whitewashed and criticism of any of their actions silenced or ignored on the basis of "but they wrote good stuff." The point remains highly contentious.
 
That's a reference to the Hugo Awards, which George presented and was heavily criticised for lionising writers whose legacy had recently been reconsidered due to their negative traits. The name of the John W. Campbell Award was changed last year to the Astounding Award after the degree to which Campbell had used his power to block authors of colour from getting their work published or even writing about black characters (with a couple of exceptions) was revealed, and the World Fantasy Award changed its trophy from a bust to Lovecraft to something else once it was discussed that Lovecraft had been a virulent anti-semite, racist and homophobe and these views permeated his works.

Martin's viewpoint was that these are correct facts but both writers also did good in their lives and their work was inspiring to many (including himself) and that a fairer assessment of their careers include judging them in a wider context. His critics pointed out that for decades both writers (and many others who engaged in behaviour that might be judged criminal today, including Asimov and Clarke) had been effectively whitewashed and criticism of any of their actions silenced or ignored on the basis of "but they wrote good stuff." The point remains highly contentious.

Perhaps the message should be, our own good deeds/accomplishments don't negate the bad. We're all human...which means we can improve, and when we don't, we've only compounded our transgressions.

K2
 
I only started reading the series because of the excellence of the tv series. The early tv series do tend to follow the books quite closely, but it's pretty unbelievable how the last 2 or 3 series went off the rails so spectacularly. Yes, they didn't have the books to follow but they did have a great formula that worked. There was no need to start artificially creating big set pieces and moving characters that either didn't make sense either in the rules of the world or the principles of the character.

At least we've still got a chance to see the proper ending of the saga, and hopefully he can use the criticism of the tv series to steer things in the right direction. I wonder if part of the delay is re-writing due to the feedback from the tv show?
 

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