Writing Workshop Group - TOEGTW Discussion: Please Read First Post

I've got my copy and you're all right it does look like a dictionary. A slightly dubious format for a text book I'd have thought. It feels a bit intimidating the way it is crammed in and not particularly eyesight-friendly. But the content looks good!
 
Copy that eagle! The stick is blue, here. We are a go. Repeat. The stick is blue!
 
By my figuring, of the people who said they had ordered the book, we still have:
Springs
Hex
Abernovo
Chocweeble
Kaladan
AnyaKimlin
to confirm they have received their copies. I know Abernovo expected delivery to be a little slow.
 
Got mine today.

Is it worth discussing which chapter to start on, or would people like to begin at Ch1 and work from there?
 
I looked at that yesterday, and I'm not sure how helpful chapter one is - finding a subject to write about - most of us have done that - and wonder are we better looking at the technical chapters - how to most effectively use a comma splice ;)
 
springs1971 said:
I looked at that yesterday, and I'm not sure how helpful chapter one is - finding a subject to write about - most of us have done that - and wonder are we better looking at the technical chapters - how to most effectively use a comma splice ;)
Click to expand...

How to effectively use a comma would be my vote lol
 
How about how to effectively use punctuation, period! :)

But yes I agree, I was thinking once we had a couple more people with the book, it would be worth beginning to discuss it in more general terms; preferred approach, etc. Those who haven't got it yet can get a pretty good idea from the contents list I posted before and have re-posted below.

Introduction
1. Subject, Reader, and Kinds of Writing
2. Strategy and Style
3. Grammar, Usage, and Mechanics

PART 1 The Writing Process
4. Looking for Subjects
5. Exploring for Topics
6. Making a Plan
7. Drafts and Revisions

PART II. The Essay
8. Beginning
9. Closing
10. Organizing the Middle
11. Point of View, Persona, and Tone

PART III The Expository Paragraph
12. Basic Structure
13. Paragraph Unity
14. Paragraph Development: (1) Illustration and Restatement
15. Paragraph Development: (2) Comparison, Contrast, and Analogy
16. Paragraph Development: (3) Cause and Effect
17. Paragraph Development: (4) Definition, Analysis, and Qualification

PART VI. The Sentence
18. The Sentence: A Definition
19. Sentence Styles
20. The Well-Written Sentence: (1) Concision
21. The Well-Written Sentence: (2) Emphasis
22. The Well-Written Sentence: (3) Rhythm
23. The Well-Written Sentence: (4) Variety

PART V. Diction
24. Meaning
25. Clarity and Simplicity
26. Concision
27. Figurative Language
28. Unusual Words and Collocations
29. Improving Your Vocabulary: Dictionaries

PART VI. Description and Narration
30. Description
31. Narration

PART VII. Punctuation
Introduction
32. Stops
33. The Other Marks

I am inclined to work through from beginning to end. however I am also inclined to group chapters together (to achieve six months we will need to tackle at least two chapters at a time).

Now as Tactical Loco observed the book does emphasise the essay rather than the novel (sorry about that, I missed that when I was researching) and I'm not so sure that Part II is desperately relevant to our needs. However please speak up if you disagree! I believe most of the rest is actually relevant; we just need to apply a little bias to it. So, for example, Exploring for Topics and Making a Plan are written with an empahsis on factual essays but the techniques are still applicable for novels. Both int the macro and the micro. IE. applied to the story as a whole and to individual parts of it. Deciding what topics need to be covered in this chapter/section/paragraph and making a plan for it are really just as relevant for the story as they are for the essay (he says as though he is already the great authority on novel writing :eek:))

Part III -The Expository Paragraph - is also very relevant. I think the Aspiring Writers sub-forum sometimes gets a bit obsessive about 'show don't tell'. In both SF and F there is inevitably a lot of world building required, we are after all setting stories in alternative worlds whether past, future or sideways! And these world will always require some explanation as well as progressive revealing through action.

As an exercise I picked up a random selection of my SF and F books and could find none that didn't have a considerable amount of exposition; particularly in the early parts. Maybe that is why series are so popular in these genres; they release both the author and the reader from quite so much of it. I suppose it could therefore be argued that for SF and F getting exposition right is almost more important.

However the remaining parts of the book are probably of most interest, so that is where we probably want to spend most time. I would suggest grouping some of the earlier parts into bigger chunks but still covering them.

Re Part II I am not so sure. I need to take a closer look at those chapters. Beginnings, middles and endings are just as important for the novel, but do they need to be approached very differently to the essay?

Sorry for the huge post again. I seem to be doing rather a lot of these around this project!
 
Interesting. some of us are also writing short stuff - if nothing else it might pay a little quicker than a novel - says she who has to see aught due to obsession with writing a novel, so I think the essay chapter is still relevant. Perhaps it could come at the end so those who are thinking of short work can do it, those who aren't can ignore and drop out at that stage?

The first one is where I had most concern - it might be worth checking across the group if we generally have our ideas in place?

3/4/5/6/7 are all relevant, no matter what we're writing, so if I had a half intelligent, non rambling suggestion, which this post very much hasn't been, I'd prefer to start at 3 and work through with an option to return to 2 for those who want to.
 
I don't think I'd have a problem with that, though I might recommend everyone gives the first parts at least a quick skim through to keep the context sensible.

You are quite right though that the material in parts one and two is very strongly directed at essays rather than stories. However the last chapter of part two (Point of View persona and tone) is still relevant though not covered in as much depth as it probably would have been if targeted at creative writing.
 
I like the book, Vertigo, and I think it might be a more helpful choice than something directed specifically at fantasy writing. The principles are the same and avoiding the rules governing the five ways of describing a dragon's hoard will let us focus more effectively on the rules/ conventions/ structures of writing.

I think it's important to be sure of our definitions when we're using this book -- they divide 'rules' into 'grammar', 'usage' and (um... is it?) 'convention' -- and most of that stuff we'd group under 'grammar' when we discuss it on the Chrons.

When I was skipping through yesterday evening the first time I stopped and read every word was the section on sentences (Part VI), although I planned to go back to the bit on paragraphs too.

My thoughts on essays would be that fiction writing is less constrained by specific rules -- especially short fiction. I appreciate there *are* rules, but if you're writing an essay and you fail to say what it's about in the first couple of paragraphs (or the abstract, but let's not get too picky here) you might be considered to have written a poor essay (not always, but often) -- in fiction there are many ways to get to where you want to be and there's a lot more discovery and mystery permitted. Mystery in an essay tends to be bad.

I like the idea of doing the most relevant things first and then returning to the rest. I agree it would be sensible to have skimmed the opening chapters for a sense of context (although I think this is more of a reference book than a read-right-through book and so we should be able to get away with dipping in and out as the fancy takes us).
 
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For some reason I thought it cost more than it did. I've ordered the book. It will take a wee while to get here though.
 
Looking at the book layout posted - my copy is on its way, but harnessed to a particularly elderly, slow-moving snail - I thought the Intro and Part One might be more something to be briefly discussed than worked on in detail.

I also thought that Part II might have a relevance for aspiring novelists. I've seen a lot of posts in Critiques concerning cover letters and writing a precis of the novel. Not having seen the actual book yet, I'm not sure if it would be any help in this, but perhaps it would help organise planning of a precis.

I'll wait to receive the actual book before saying too much more, though.
 
Great to have you along WP! I expect you were thinking of the first book I was looking at, which was quite expensive. And that was one of the reasons I dropped it. Though I suspect I will still get it for myself, as I still think it looks like a good book.

Looks like we are forming a reasonable consensus on approach which is good :)
 
I read Chapter 12 last night. I it's the last section of part I and talks about persona, what we would call 'voice'.

I while a go posted something in the crits forum that some people felt was talking down to them. In reality I was going for the voice of a story teller, but apparently sounded more like university lecturer.

Anyway (anyroad over the pond?), I found it useful.
 
Hi All
Still waiting for my copy to arrive, but hopefully soon! Have sporadic internet at the moment also as some helpful people have nicked 4 miles of phone cable from our exchange - we've been off for a week. So am only able to get on at friends and hotspots currently. Will let you know as soon as I have the book.
 
Chocco - sorry to hear of your internet problems. Hope they will be resolved soon!

TL: maybe you should post your contents list; it appears to be somewhat different to mine. In mine that is chapter 11 and the last chapter in part 2.

I'm sure there's not that much difference but we will need to get a common reference or it might end up choas :D
 
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