A place for horse related questions

One other little tidbit that may prove useful to you. At least in the States with dressage riders, it is relatively common, when a primary showhorse dies, to cut off the tail after the bone and preserve it as a memorial. My mom has St. Just Juliet's and Rising Eagle's tails displayed, along with a framed photo and most of the ribbons and awards they won on their own walls.
I've never heard of that here. Some people have tail hairs made into a bracelet, or keep the last set of shoes for sentimental reasons, but that's as far as it goes.

Both your mum's horses are beauties. Here are some of ours. The appaloosa is a Danish Warmblood cross (Knabstrupper x), and she's the one who broke Katrina's pelvis. The liver chestnut is the ex racer (he'd been dragged out of retirement for this photo), and the black mare is a Welsh cob x Hackney as a baby, at her first competition. She had her tongue over the bit the whole way through the test, little brat. Learned that trick in the warm-up and raising the bit didn't work!

Deep apologies to @Montero for hijacking your perfectly good questions!

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In the years after WWII, for transportation I rode a tall, lanky sorrel that we called Bob. He was 16.1h and 490kg (1080 pounds). His sire was a registered Tennesse Walker and his dam was a small farm mare that had an unusually smooth trot. Bob preferred an extraordinarily smooth untrained ambling gait that we called a singlefoot (looked a little like a running walk, but wasn't). His peak singlefoot speed was 26 mph, and at slower speeds on the order of 12 to 16 mph, he could hold it for miles, it being his preferred gait for traveling). I rarely used a saddle. My uncle told me that he was descended from Copperbottom (a quarter horse foundation sire from the early 1800s). I miss Bob and still think of him every day.
 
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I've never heard of that here. Some people have tail hairs made into a bracelet, or keep the last set of shoes for sentimental reasons, but that's as far as it goes.

Both your mum's horses are beauties. Here are some of ours. The appaloosa is a Danish Warmblood cross (Knabstrupper x), and she's the one who broke Katrina's pelvis. The liver chestnut is the ex racer (he'd been dragged out of retirement for this photo), and the black mare is a Welsh cob x Hackney as a baby, at her first competition. She had her tongue over the bit the whole way through the test, little brat. Learned that trick in the warm-up and raising the bit didn't work!

Deep apologies to @Montero for hijacking your perfectly good questions!

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Beautiful. Great legs and neck position on all three.

I meant to mention something about her injury... I don't know that it's possible to work with horses for any significant period of time and not be injured at some point. My mom shattered her collar bone when a 3 year old bucked her off, and was cow kicked in the face, resulting in permanent nerve damage. Thus far, the worse that's happened to me is having my foot stepped on, so I'm rather fortunate. I was nearly trampled once though by this one almost 19 hand horse... 5 year old gelding who no one had ever been firm with (mainly due to fear), so he thought he was the dominant male of the heard. He reared and tried to hit me with his front hoofs; thankfully this was during my martial arts days and I was able to go sideways and between his hoofs as they came down. Needless to say, I quickly hooked on his lead line with the chain across the top of his nose to make sure he didn't pull that stunt again.

But a chain across the top of the nose is not something I normally do. I'm more of a carrot and stick discipliner when it comes to horses (and kids too... but this is about horses!). For example, when leading in a horse, I do not permit them to pull away from me at all. If they do, I say no then lead them in a tight circle before continuing, and repeat this for as long as they wish to pull away. It normally only takes a couple circles before they figure out that pulling away only makes it take longer before they are in the barn, so they comply. And, after they have been led in without pulling away several times, I stop using a lead line altogether and just lead them by halter. My theory is if I have to put a chain across the top of their nose, something is wrong with the trust and discipline relationship.

But anyway... my apologies to Montero as well! I'm hoping some of this discussion about human-horse relationships is useful to you in your work!
 
"Some of them are just a bit special, aren't they?"

Some of them are a whole lot special :)
My aunt had a really good riding mule that she used in the years before the War. I don't remember him, but he looked impressive in his photos (once you got past the ears).

BTW, we were from rural Arkansas.
 
I think you're right. Injuries are common. I've broken several bones over the years, sometimes going on to be placed in competition despite the fracture (ambulance paramedics really hate horse riders -- they'll never just lie down and accept they're injured). Most of them were my own fault, mind you, not the horse's. Katrina would say the same about her injuries. She did stupid things and reaped the reward.

I took two lovely hoof-shaped bruises on my honeymoon with me (many years ago), and considered myself lucky the kick didn't break both my femurs. That was a young horse I'd been injecting each day post surgery. She really didn't like me much, and I found it hard to blame her.

Edit: @JimC. I've only occasionally met mules, but they seem really cool dudes, the ones I've known.

We're in rural County Down, Northern Ireland.
 
Oh, I'm seriously enjoying all of it. Beautiful pictures. Listening to other people talk shop on a subject I am interested in can be fascinating.
No disrespect, I think you are all great as is your care for horses and knowledge - but I can feel a scene coming on of an injured rider coming to visit their beloved at the hospital, waving away all concern for their own broken limbs in favour of discussing their beloved's sprained fetlock (that is ankle, isn't it?). Followed by blaming themselves for all the injuries, and then at the drop of the hat, explaining the exquisite breeding of their beloved, and the marvelous characters of said ancestors.
I'm the same with my pet sheep - I can tell you ancestors back six generations and how the current one is a typical character for the blood line.

Incidentally, I had a vague memory on sheep recognising people, some research that was discussed on lambing live the other year, and I found a BBC article on some of it - Sheep 'can recognise human faces' - though there was also research where they put a full sized cut-out photo figure of Adam Henson smiling, and Adam Henson scowling beside two different lanes built of hay bales - and his sheep who'd already shown they preferred a photo of him, over a photo of a stranger. The sheep then showed they preferred him smiling over scowling.
 
"We're in rural County Down, Northern Ireland".

I know. Southeast of Lisburn. I used to hang out in Dungannon and Coalisland. Did you know Packy Logan that managed the Tyrone Democrat, or his sportscaster son Adrian (Logie)? I miss Packy. Adrian too. I think I may have a photo of Adrian in Arkansas riding a quarterhorse, taken many, many years ago.
 
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Oh, I'm seriously enjoying all of it. Beautiful pictures. Listening to other people talk shop on a subject I am interested in can be fascinating.
No disrespect, I think you are all great as is your care for horses and knowledge - but I can feel a scene coming on of an injured rider coming to visit their beloved at the hospital, waving away all concern for their own broken limbs in favour of discussing their beloved's sprained fetlock (that is ankle, isn't it?). Followed by blaming themselves for all the injuries, and then at the drop of the hat, explaining the exquisite breeding of their beloved, and the marvelous characters of said ancestors.
I'm the same with my pet sheep - I can tell you ancestors back six generations and how the current one is a typical character for the blood line.

Incidentally, I had a vague memory on sheep recognising people, some research that was discussed on lambing live the other year, and I found a BBC article on some of it - Sheep 'can recognise human faces' - though there was also research where they put a full sized cut-out photo figure of Adam Henson smiling, and Adam Henson scowling beside two different lanes built of hay bales - and his sheep who'd already shown they preferred a photo of him, over a photo of a stranger. The sheep then showed they preferred him smiling over scowling.
I'm glad its helpful! And yes, I think any horse owner could find such a scene quite believable. A horse is almost like a giant perpetual child to most horse owners, so yeah, that could definitely happen.

Not to further derail this conversation, but I haven't raised sheep... I've heard they are simultaneously excruciatingly idiotic and incredibly intelligent... does this match your experience? What is some of the nuance here regarding their intelligence?
 
Well, to start with they think like sheep not people - a lot of people don't understand that and yell about idiot sheep. Don't make any sudden changes, they like routine. We feed every day in a handling area, just one of us around. If there are two of us, they instantly (and often rightly) expect trouble of the worming drench variety. So I have the troughs laid out well in from the gate, the food goes down, and I do a lot of calling and wait until I have them all jostling at the gate before I open it. The sheep all rush in when I open the gate and get caught up in the swirl. I then have space to shut the gate. After that the second person turns up. If the sheep suspect something some will hang back, or start to run back out the open gate.
They can tell if you are behaving differently. They know if you are looking at them as being the next one to catch and will try and hide behind other sheep.

In general sheep intelligence varies a lot. We have primitive sheep who are pretty bright and self-reliant and stubborn. Within that, different individuals have different levels of intelligence and also emotional intelligence. Some are flighty, some are friendly, some are calm but can't be bothered with people and stand at the back of the flock and just look at you with a bit of an "and?" expression. Some get really thick when panicked, others rarely panic. And they have a really determined approach to getting to better grass. I've blocked a hole at the bottom of a fence (a lot of ours will wriggle under a fence) and then watched the sheep that had been commuting to the better grass, try to unblock the hole by pushing with its head, or scraping at it with a front hoof. Then give up and work up and down the fence, testing the give of the wire with their head and whether they can lift it up with their nose in a new place.
Our lot have got good memories too. In our first year keeping sheep, they had shelter in an outbuilding at the back of the house over winter. Next winter we'd filled that building with stuff, and cleared out a chunk of the old tin barn. It was a horrible day with sleet coming down, and I went to fetch them from three fields away. They all turned up, a little wild eyed, very, very eager to get to shelter and instead of following the shaken feed sack went streaming ahead of me, through the open gates, across the last field and plastered themselves along the shut gate into the building they knew was shelter. It had been at least six months since they'd last been in there. It took me a lot of sack shaking and calling to persuade a couple of them to come up and try out the barn. Get one, then a second one, then a couple more, then maybe four. Once more than half have moved the remainder decide they've been left behind and all run over in a bundle. You probably never deal with enough horses at once to have to worry about herd dynamics. Herd dynamics are really important with sheep - get them all moving together and there is a momentum to it. Lose that, or they all decide they don't like where you are taking them, and suddenly they are all coming back at you. We don't have a dog. We handle them by luring them with feed. Once you've caught them and done something they don't like, it will take a few days before they will all come back into the handling area.

In broad terms, the higher the altitude the sheep was bred for, the tougher, faster and brighter they are - harder environment, need better survival skills. Lowland sheep can be really placid and dumb. Look into their eyes and the lights are not turned on. Unlike our lot who are giving you the eyeball, assessing you for carrying food, and working out if they do a quick shove, whether they can squeeze past you as you open the field gate.
I once had a conversation with a delivery driver, dropping gravel into our field.
Me "Quick, get the gate shut before the sheep notice."
Him "Seriously?"
Me "SHUT IT." Running to do it myself.
Him "My sheep wouldn't even notice the gate was open."
Me "Mine would be off up the road for a ramble. What sheep have you got?"
Him "Devon and Cornwall longwools."

A friend who also keeps primitive sheep refers to standard lowland commercial sheep as field maggots.
 
Well, to start with they think like sheep not people - a lot of people don't understand that and yell about idiot sheep. Don't make any sudden changes, they like routine. We feed every day in a handling area, just one of us around. If there are two of us, they instantly (and often rightly) expect trouble of the worming drench variety. So I have the troughs laid out well in from the gate, the food goes down, and I do a lot of calling and wait until I have them all jostling at the gate before I open it. The sheep all rush in when I open the gate and get caught up in the swirl. I then have space to shut the gate. After that the second person turns up. If the sheep suspect something some will hang back, or start to run back out the open gate.
They can tell if you are behaving differently. They know if you are looking at them as being the next one to catch and will try and hide behind other sheep.

In general sheep intelligence varies a lot. We have primitive sheep who are pretty bright and self-reliant and stubborn. Within that, different individuals have different levels of intelligence and also emotional intelligence. Some are flighty, some are friendly, some are calm but can't be bothered with people and stand at the back of the flock and just look at you with a bit of an "and?" expression. Some get really thick when panicked, others rarely panic. And they have a really determined approach to getting to better grass. I've blocked a hole at the bottom of a fence (a lot of ours will wriggle under a fence) and then watched the sheep that had been commuting to the better grass, try to unblock the hole by pushing with its head, or scraping at it with a front hoof. Then give up and work up and down the fence, testing the give of the wire with their head and whether they can lift it up with their nose in a new place.
Our lot have got good memories too. In our first year keeping sheep, they had shelter in an outbuilding at the back of the house over winter. Next winter we'd filled that building with stuff, and cleared out a chunk of the old tin barn. It was a horrible day with sleet coming down, and I went to fetch them from three fields away. They all turned up, a little wild eyed, very, very eager to get to shelter and instead of following the shaken feed sack went streaming ahead of me, through the open gates, across the last field and plastered themselves along the shut gate into the building they knew was shelter. It had been at least six months since they'd last been in there. It took me a lot of sack shaking and calling to persuade a couple of them to come up and try out the barn. Get one, then a second one, then a couple more, then maybe four. Once more than half have moved the remainder decide they've been left behind and all run over in a bundle. You probably never deal with enough horses at once to have to worry about herd dynamics. Herd dynamics are really important with sheep - get them all moving together and there is a momentum to it. Lose that, or they all decide they don't like where you are taking them, and suddenly they are all coming back at you. We don't have a dog. We handle them by luring them with feed. Once you've caught them and done something they don't like, it will take a few days before they will all come back into the handling area.

In broad terms, the higher the altitude the sheep was bred for, the tougher, faster and brighter they are - harder environment, need better survival skills. Lowland sheep can be really placid and dumb. Look into their eyes and the lights are not turned on. Unlike our lot who are giving you the eyeball, assessing you for carrying food, and working out if they do a quick shove, whether they can squeeze past you as you open the field gate.
I once had a conversation with a delivery driver, dropping gravel into our field.
Me "Quick, get the gate shut before the sheep notice."
Him "Seriously?"
Me "SHUT IT." Running to do it myself.
Him "My sheep wouldn't even notice the gate was open."
Me "Mine would be off up the road for a ramble. What sheep have you got?"
Him "Devon and Cornwall longwools."

A friend who also keeps primitive sheep refers to standard lowland commercial sheep as field maggots.
Nice. Yeah alot of that is familiar. What stood out to me is the shared instinct for "out". Of course, horses often weigh in excess of 2000 lbs (900 kg), so they often have enough heft to break through a fence if they especially want to... so electricity is nearly essential to contain them (or alternatively highly expensive, massively over-engineered oak fences). Also, interesting the difference between highland/primitive sheep and lowland sheep. I knew there was some difference, but I didn't realize it was that stark.

Yeah, we don't have to deal with heard dynamics in the sense you are referring, primarily because we keep most of them in individual paddocks. That said, intra-herd relations are a very real concern, because even in the paddocks, individuals have their rank in the herd. Do NOT lead in a horse who is lower ranked than another before the higher ranked one... the head mare is queen and she WILL throw a hissy fit that would make a toddler jealous, and fences WILL be broken if equinely possible. I've also seen a head mare run up and bite a gelding on the posterior because he was led out of the barn first... After her, the head gelding comes in, then on down the line. What gets interesting is that the social dynamics can actually be influenced by the order of leading in... although this takes patience and occasional broken fences.

Another point of irony; we use German Shepards to help with the horses. The ones we trained were smart enough to connect the names of the horses to individuals, so if we call for one and it isn't by the gate, the dog is off to herd it up. They also are invaluable in rounding up horses after a fence break and trapping delivery drivers in the back of their lorries... especially this one German Shepard/Siberian Huskey cross that looked and sounded like a Shepard colored wolf summoning the horde...
 
Sheep definitely have rank, and friends. If you split a herd into three paddocks - breeders, non-breeders and oldies say and then recombine them later, there will be all sorts of head butting and chasing breaking out. You will get friends supporting each other - sometimes I've seen three a side fights break out when the original one on each side is joined by a couple of mates. The ranking is not quite as linear as you are describing with horses, but there will be clusters of top, middling and bottom sheep. Siblings often support each other when they are younger, but ones ewes have had youngsters that bond is weaker with the youngsters getting her support - until they are expected to fend for themselves.

I find it ironic with the different sheep breeds, that mankind has basically bred some to be extremely docile and easier to handle - and then complains about them being thick.
 
Oh - and sheep don't bite - each other or people. There isn't really any kicking - a ewe might shove a lamb with her foot if she is pushing it away when she doesn't want it feeding. (Though I have seen online someone saying that they had a ewe that would kick a lamb into a curve - you are not my lamb, you will not suckle from me.) It's all butting, and side swipes with horns - usually causes bruises. The horns are pointed but rounded - they use them rather like a bargain-hunter's elbows. I've finished up with little round bruises on my thighs from sheep shoving past me - as in not puncture wounds. They will swing horns, stamp and snort in threat to protect a lamb. We've had the occasional psycho mum who will stand four square over the lamb, head lowered and glaring.
 
New question - pasture. I've seen stuff about pasture maintenance for horses, and seen pastures maintained like that - smooth, every heap of horse poo carefully scooped up and removed to a big pile - could almost play bowling on it (the pasture not the sh*t heap - though I think bowling down a manure heap might be a more entertaining sport than doing it on the flat). Pasture sub-divided by strips of white electric tape and horses only allowed a bit at a time. Then there are real fields....... Clearly Kerry has seen horses in real fields or the Arabian wouldn't have skidded on a cow pat. Any comments from folks on why the different sort of pasture? What are the merits of bowling green land? If my animal hospital let recuperating horses out into imperfect pasture would there be squawks from owners?
And would I be right that you don't let strange horses into a pasture with each other because they will then have dominance fights and injure each other?
 
Management varies according to the preference of the owner, the value of the horses and the availability of pasture. We live in a land of granite and bogs, so our horses get turned out in fields that would probably make @Joshua Jones’ mum’s hair stand on end. They learn to jump streams and climb rocks virtually from birth. They are also turned out in mixed-sex herds, but we are super-cautious about introducing new herd members.
When we had 10 at home, we divided them into smaller groups that got on well, with a dominant horse in each to reduce risk of injury. These days we only have a retiree and a youngster, both geldings, so they mooch around together.
One of our livery clients in the past (someone who paid us to look after her horses) insisted on individual turnout, one at a time, and only in a small gravelled area we use for winter turnout. Both her horses were top class event era in the making and she planned to sell them for big money. A small scar from a bite or kick would have knocked £1,000s off the value.
The importance of picking up poops is multi fold. Poops can introduce worms to the pasture (although all ours are wormed), and they make the pasture ‘horse sick’ if left alone. The grass grows thick and green where they lie (horses make themselves latrine areas to leave the rest of the pasture good), and then the horses won’t eat it.
Our fields would be impossible to keep perfect (see above: rocks and bog), so we manage them by pasture rotation, harrowing the poops across the land then rolling the grass. This allows the droppings to dry out and reduces worm burden, plus it fertilises the land evenly.
 
New question - pasture. I've seen stuff about pasture maintenance for horses, and seen pastures maintained like that - smooth, every heap of horse poo carefully scooped up and removed to a big pile - could almost play bowling on it (the pasture not the sh*t heap - though I think bowling down a manure heap might be a more entertaining sport than doing it on the flat). Pasture sub-divided by strips of white electric tape and horses only allowed a bit at a time. Then there are real fields....... Clearly Kerry has seen horses in real fields or the Arabian wouldn't have skidded on a cow pat. Any comments from folks on why the different sort of pasture? What are the merits of bowling green land? If my animal hospital let recuperating horses out into imperfect pasture would there be squawks from owners?
And would I be right that you don't let strange horses into a pasture with each other because they will then have dominance fights and injure each other?
Management varies according to the preference of the owner, the value of the horses and the availability of pasture. We live in a land of granite and bogs, so our horses get turned out in fields that would probably make @Joshua Jones’ mum’s hair stand on end. They learn to jump streams and climb rocks virtually from birth. They are also turned out in mixed-sex herds, but we are super-cautious about introducing new herd members.
When we had 10 at home, we divided them into smaller groups that got on well, with a dominant horse in each to reduce risk of injury. These days we only have a retiree and a youngster, both geldings, so they mooch around together.
One of our livery clients in the past (someone who paid us to look after her horses) insisted on individual turnout, one at a time, and only in a small gravelled area we use for winter turnout. Both her horses were top class event era in the making and she planned to sell them for big money. A small scar from a bite or kick would have knocked £1,000s off the value.
The importance of picking up poops is multi fold. Poops can introduce worms to the pasture (although all ours are wormed), and they make the pasture ‘horse sick’ if left alone. The grass grows thick and green where they lie (horses make themselves latrine areas to leave the rest of the pasture good), and then the horses won’t eat it.
Our fields would be impossible to keep perfect (see above: rocks and bog), so we manage them by pasture rotation, harrowing the poops across the land then rolling the grass. This allows the droppings to dry out and reduces worm burden, plus it fertilises the land evenly.
Yeah, we were of the perfectly kept pasture pattern. Dressage riders are funny creatures; obsessive over every minuscule detail and renownly stuck up and self-important, as Kerry's livery client (this is known as boarding in the States if you're curious) demonstrates. The rationale she provides is also spot on... the slightest imperfection significantly reduces the value of the horse. And, quite frankly, that is the benefit of the perfect pasture. Lower chance of injury and imperfection, as well as the worm issue Kerry mentioned.

Regarding poo, we collect that into a manure spreader (a tractor pulled cart with a conveyor belt bottom and spinning blades at the back to break it up and fling it around behind) and spread it upon our hay fields (we grow about half of our own hay, which is primarily used for the winter. I can provide more details there if useful), and occasionally on the pasture fields, although the ground is usually sufficiently fertile not to require this.

And regarding paddocks, we usually keep the horses my mom owns directly in one larger paddock (she only owns 2-3 at a time so it isn't a large quantity), and each border gets its own paddock. This does not entirely prevent fighting though; if horses don't like each other, they will bite at each other over the fence. To get around this, we have hedge rows between some of the paddocks, and we use those for newer horses and those who don't play nicely with others, and use the close paddocks for horses who have been long term acquaintances. In a clinical setting, I would expect a similar setup, or perhaps 6-8 foot walkways between individual paddocks (which is a bit hard to do without extensive space, as our paddocks are about half an acre apiece for the individual horses.
 

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