Joe Abercrombie defends gritty fantasy

[Joe Abercrombie]

That's a fair point, and if I were to rewrite the piece, I would go for more of a "sliding scale" type distinction than a dichotomous one. But of course it's easier to recognize these things after people point them out to you than to recognize them as you are writing

Oh, zing!

 

[Joe Abercrombie]

Better had be, I bought it today. If not, I shall hunt you down....

Much easier than hunting me down would be to post a blistering screed on its grimdark shortcomings...

 

[Nerds_feather]

Oh, zing!

Not sure if this means I botched the mea culpa, but if it does, let me restate:

I think you are absolutely right that the dichotomous approach I took is problematic, and if I were to rewrite the essay, I'd do it differently. The category one/two thing seemed like a better idea at the time than it does now.

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

To get back to grimdark -- I think the point here is it is not only possible but believable to have women whose backstory does not include rape (or if it does, it isn't their prime motivation or source of angst).

Makes me glad I have no female characters whose backstory is rape in any of my four published books or two scheduled ones!

 

[Kissmequick]

Much easier than hunting me down would be to post a blistering screed on its grimdark shortcomings...

And then you do a thinly veiled character assassination of me, followed by vicious feud. Culminates in handbags at dawn on Hampstead Heath and internet sh*tstorm of vitriol on both sides when I cheat and take you out with a hidden half brick in my Louis Vitton and a set of brass knuckles, but at least you came prepared with cricket box, saving you from permanent damage, and a sniper hidden in the trees who wings me, leaving me sloping off trailing blood. Someone 'leaks' that I've been bribing you for months with 20 year old scotch in return for staged controversy to sell my books....

Resulting outrage reaches front page of every national newspaper

I like it.

Makes me glad I have no female characters whose backstory is rape in any of my four published books or two scheduled ones!

Excellent. (You do have female characters though? I keed, I keed - I think the flu meds are messing with my brainzzz)

 

[Joe Abercrombie]

Not sure if this means I botched the mea culpa, but if it does, let me restate:

Oh, no worries. I thought when you said, "But of course it's easier to recognize these things after people point them out to you than to recognize them as you are writing." it might be an ingenious dig against, say, a fantasy author who might pen gritty grimdark without fully considering the consequences...

 

[Seli]

I wasn't claiming that these kinds of "nostalgics" don't exist, but rather problematizing the assumption that a critique of violence in fantasy (wether limited like my own or more expansive like the one put forward by Fishbowl Helmet) implies this kind of nostalgia. You'd have to go to deeper into the individual arguments to see if it does or not.

That perhaps just a limitation of language, where critique and criticism are inherently ambiguous. With both usable for 'complaining' and 'analysis'. And I can imagine that both have an impact on a writer, and thus need boxes

 

[Nerds_feather]

Oh, no worries. I thought when you said, "But of course it's easier to recognize these things after people point them out to you than to recognize them as you are writing." it might be an ingenious dig against, say, a fantasy author who might pen gritty grimdark without fully considering the consequences...

If only I were that witty/sly...was actually going for the more mundane "yeah, I can see that now."

Anyways, this might be a good time for me to exit the thread. It's been very interesting, though. Thanks for coming on here and being so open to discussion. To Doug Hulick and everyone else as well...

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

If only I were that witty/sly...was actually going for the more mundane "yeah, I can see that now."

Anyways, this might be a good time for me to exit the thread. It's been very interesting, though. Thanks for coming on here and being so open to discussion. To Doug Hulick and everyone else as well...

A pleasure.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

Makes me glad I have no female characters whose backstory is rape in any of my four published books or two scheduled ones!

No. But the male characters are portrayed as having raped and the character is shocked by how much he likes having a willing partner instead of having to hurry because a building's on fire and doesn't have to wait on line to get his turn to rape someone.

So technically, no. No female characters with rape backstories, just a train of nameless faceless women used and raped by the male characters. Good for you, Mark.

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

No. But the male characters are portrayed as having raped and the character is shocked by how much he likes having a willing partner instead of having to hurry because a building's on fire and doesn't have to wait on line to get his turn to rape someone.

So technically, no. No female characters with rape backstories, just a train of nameless faceless women used and raped by the male characters. Good for you, Mark.

How bizarre.

This "train of nameless faceless women used and raped by the male characters" is entirely created for you by 61 words in a whole book (that you've not read). I could have done the job with "they raped a lot" and used just 4 and I would still have you jeering at me...

Is your contention that to write a book which acknowleges the fact rape exists and is quite commonplace in war torn and lawless situations is some kind of heinous act in itself?

Your antagonism is most peculiar, especially as you repeatedly state that you don't object to people writing books you don't enjoy.

What are you hoping to achieve here?

 

[Brian G Turner]

What are you hoping to achieve here?

I think he's asking a pertinent question. You wrote a book where the protagonist is a self-confessed rapist, cheerful about it, and you want to put the reader into this character's head.

The surprise is that you continually act surprised that people would challenge you on it. More to the point, when people such as Nerds Feather raise a general discussion pointer on "grimdark", you go out of your way to try and belittle him and try and make yourself the centre of attention.

Let's just recap - there are seven published authors in this discussion, and the other six appear able to show a degree of civility and social awareness.

You've been asked a direct question: why not try to answer it instead of trying to dismiss it and pretend you are being victimised?

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

You've been asked a direct question: why not try to answer it instead of trying to dismiss it and pretend you are being victimised?

What was the direct question?

Fishbowl's post didn't even contain a question mark.

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

More to the point, when people such as Nerds Feather raise a general discussion pointer on "grimdark", you go out of your way to try and belittle him and try and make yourself the centre of attention.

I wholly reject that accusation.

 

[Brian G Turner]

What was the direct question?

Fishbowl's post didn't even contain a question mark.

He answered your statement here:

Makes me glad I have no female characters whose backstory is rape in any of my four published books or two scheduled ones!

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

He answered your statement here:

My statement wasn't a question.

Replying to my statement wasn't a question. Let alone a direct one!

If you think there's a question in there and you'd like me to answer it, by all means ask it.

Otherwise I'm done here.

 

[Fried Egg]

Why should Mark, or anyone else have to justify their work to anyone? I'm surprised he gives so much time to answering these sorts of criticisms which he must hear time and time again all over the place. He doesn't have to and he's under no moral obligation to do so.

I'm sure I've said this elsewhere but I think the nub of so many people's problem with characters like Jorg is that he is simultaneously both likeable and detestable. People have a problem with this because they like their heroes to be heroes and their villains to be villains. Never the twain should meet. Such people are confused by their mixed feelings towards such characters and they don't like it. Personally, I find such characters more interesting and, to be honest, realistic.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Why should Mark, or anyone else have to justify their work to anyone?

No one has to - but there was a discussion on the issue of "grimdark" and Mark seemed keen to post.

I just have difficult finding any kind of answer being provided.

Which is surprising, because when I read Prince of Thorns I seem to recall a get-out clause built into the story, but it's never brought up. Which means I've either misread the piece, or else have to provide spoilers.

 

[AMB]

Provide spoilers!

 

[Ursa major]

Why should Mark, or anyone else have to justify their work to anyone?

No-one really has to defend their work, and quite rightly.

But neither do they have to respond to complaints - which often aren't complaints (or if they are, they're not about their work) - by asking those making those (possibly imagined) complaints to justify** them.



** - It's fine to ask for evidence - to further the debate - but this thread isn't a court of law and we're not really meant to be acting as barristers for opposing sides.