Joe Abercrombie defends gritty fantasy

No one has to - but there was a discussion on the issue of "grimdark" and Mark seemed keen to post. :)

I just have difficult finding any kind of answer being provided.

And I have repeatedly attempted to get the 'objection' in the form of a question.

Nobody seems able to do it.

Saying (& here I paraphrase): You're a bad man, people who read this are degenerate.

...is not a question.

Mischaracterising the content of a set of books in general or my books in particular...

...is not a question.

If somebody wants answers to be forthcoming ... ask a question.
 
I just have difficult finding any kind of answer being provided.
Indeed, I have to echo Mark in saying I'm having difficulty finding any kind of question which, one has to admit, is a prerequisite to there being an answer!
 
No-one really has to defend their work, and quite rightly.

But neither do they have to respond to complaints - which often aren't complaints (or if they are, they're not about their work) - to justify those (imagined) complaints.

But the thread is 'Abercrombie defends' ... and he's defending against complaints. And one of the few links he provides in his piece is a link to a blog about an astonishing essay about my book.

How is it bad to respond to complaints? Isn't that the purpose of a thread discussing the defence against complaints?
 
OK, well, to slightly shift the discussion...

I'm a bit confused about 'grimdark' as a descriptor. In the past I've mostly taken grimdark to mean the almost laughably extremely violent and cynical. But now people seem to be using it in a much more fluid way. Perhaps even to the point of meaning, 'whatever examples support whatever argument I'm making in this paragraph.'

So what is grimdark anyway?
 
But the thread is 'Abercrombie defends' ... and he's defending against complaints. And one of the few links he provides in his piece is a link to a blog about an astonishing essay about my book.

How is it bad to respond to complaints? Isn't that the purpose of a thread discussing the defence against complaints?
Actually, the first post linked to a blog called, "The Value of Grit", in which Joe Abercrombie lays out what he believes are the benefits of grit. I didn't read the blog as being particularly defensive.

(By the way, "being defensive" is not entirely the same as "defending"....)
 
Actually, the first post linked to a blog called, "The Value of Grit", in which Joe Abercrombie lays out what he believes are the benefits of grit. I didn't read the blog as being particularly defensive.

(By the way, "being defensive" is not entirely the same as "defending"....)

_this thread_ which Nerd started and titled, is called 'Abercrombie defends'

it contains objections...

Are you objecting to me answering those objections.

And - given the championing of civility here - you really think that asking me rhetorical questions about my understanding of words is practicing what you preach?
 
OK, well, to slightly shift the discussion...

I'm a bit confused about 'grimdark' as a descriptor. In the past I've mostly taken grimdark to mean the almost laughably extremely violent and cynical. But now people seem to be using it in a much more fluid way. Perhaps even to the point of meaning, 'whatever examples support whatever argument I'm making in this paragraph.'

So what is grimdark anyway?
I suspect "grimdark" is mostly used a rod with which to beat the authors of gritty fiction of which the critic doesn't approve, so its scope depends on the critic. By this definition, I haven't actually read any grimdark. And I hope never to do so, if only because I'm quite squeamish. Gritty fiction, though, is fine by me. (I have no problem with cynical fiction, just extremely graphic, gratuitous violence.)
 
OK, well, to slightly shift the discussion...

I'm a bit confused about 'grimdark' as a descriptor. In the past I've mostly taken grimdark to mean the almost laughably extremely violent and cynical. But now people seem to be using it in a much more fluid way. Perhaps even to the point of meaning, 'whatever examples support whatever argument I'm making in this paragraph.'

So what is grimdark anyway?

It was coined as an insult and is very often used as such. To pin an insult down with definitions narrows its use in a inconvenient manner.

You'd be correct to think grimdark might often be interchangeable with 'the thing I don't like' so long as the thing contains some measure of violence.
 
Indeed, I have to echo Mark in saying I'm having difficulty finding any kind of question which, one has to admit, is a prerequisite to there being an answer!

Okay, my apologies, it looks as though I misread what was being said.

Provide spoilers!

Okay, I've moved the Prince of Thorns discussion here:
http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/540119-prince-of-thorns-discussion-spoilers.html

OK, well, to slightly shift the discussion...

I'm a bit confused about 'grimdark' as a descriptor. In the past I've mostly taken grimdark to mean the almost laughably extremely violent and cynical. But now people seem to be using it in a much more fluid way. Perhaps even to the point of meaning, 'whatever examples support whatever argument I'm making in this paragraph.'

So what is grimdark anyway?

Let's get back to this. :)
 
And - given the championing of civility here - you really think that asking me rhetorical questions about my understanding of words is practicing what you preach?
:confused:

I was simply explaining, to those reading this thread, words I used when saying what Joe's blog wasn't. Not everyone who visits here has English as a first language, and I like them to know what I mean. (As an aside, I often put, say, the word an American might use in brackets after an English word which may mean something else in North America.) Please pardon me for trying to be precise.

And I'm sorry if you thought my explanation was aimed at anyone posting in this thread. It was not.
 
OK, well, to slightly shift the discussion...

I'm a bit confused about 'grimdark' as a descriptor. In the past I've mostly taken grimdark to mean the almost laughably extremely violent and cynical. But now people seem to be using it in a much more fluid way. Perhaps even to the point of meaning, 'whatever examples support whatever argument I'm making in this paragraph.'

So what is grimdark anyway?

Meant to stay out of this thread, but can't resist the urge to be nerdy one more time! I'll exit again now after this...

The term comes from Warhammer 40k, and the tagline: "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.".

Some history here and here.

And yes, it can be used as an explicitly pejorative alternative to "grit" or "gritty." But the Warhammer 40k version isn't just pejorative--it's a descriptor of an orientation towards "extreme grit," and is embraced by some and decried by others. Someone like Requires Hate, who uses the term and is well-versed in gamer culture, understands this context.

But a lot of people writing about fantasy also use it because it's just a funnier sounding way of saying "grit," while others still just use it because other people are using it (the whole meme thing). Depends on the context.
 
OK, well, to slightly shift the discussion...

I'm a bit confused about 'grimdark' as a descriptor. In the past I've mostly taken grimdark to mean the almost laughably extremely violent and cynical. But now people seem to be using it in a much more fluid way. Perhaps even to the point of meaning, 'whatever examples support whatever argument I'm making in this paragraph.'

So what is grimdark anyway?


I think like many things (like, what is the difference between UF and PNR) people have their own definitions which may or may not gibe.

For me it's an unrelenting grimness - there may be flashes of humour, but no real hope. Often this involves lots of violence etc, but it doesn't have to. Kinda of like the Warhammer 40k universe where the term supposedly came from. Endless wars, if you win this battle there's only another 100 to go, a million more enemies that multiply all the time, no light at the end of the tunnel...the situation, and people, will never change. Unremittingly cynical.

And I don't think that's a bad thing, in and of itself. I don't think I could read only that, or I'd probably slit my wrists, but I do like it sometimes so I, personally, wouldn't use it as an insult, more an indication of a trend/subgenre. But then those trends/subgenres can be used as insults if someone loathes them. Try writing romance (I do under another name)and see the looks/comments you get then! It's all just 'silly fluff', 'only for women, because only they'd like it' 'pointless crap' 'pinked up porn' etc etc. Fluff? Well, they haven't read my books then, esp the later ones! Not a speck of fluff in sight, but plenty of darkness.

When used as insults these almost always come from people who either haven't read the genre, or tried one and didn't like it (hey, becuase there's crap of everything, right?) My romance detractors tend to cite Barbara Cartland as a prime example. Who is about as opposite as she can be to me when I'm writing romance (or fantasy come to that). SFF does/used to get a lot too (just for boys and men who live in their mum's basement etc)

So perhaps some people use it as an insult, and some use it to describe a tone or atmosphere that has become common lately. The trick is figuring out who is who, and I tend to think the ones who've never read any and use it as an insult, well, that's their problem, tbh. People insult what they don't understand.
 
No. But the male characters are portrayed as having raped and the character is shocked by how much he likes having a willing partner instead of having to hurry because a building's on fire and doesn't have to wait on line to get his turn to rape someone.

So technically, no. No female characters with rape backstories, just a train of nameless faceless women used and raped by the male characters. Good for you, Mark.

But the sociopathic and dismissive nature of his personality is NOT written in a way that requires us to be cheerleading for it! Why does every protaganist have to be virtuous?

This is the crux of what I don't understand. The whole POINT of the character (obviously IMO) is that he's an evil little ******* in a lot of ways, but is he totally irredeemable? Does he have anything good left in him or has it been burned out by the various abuses he suffered as a child (emotional and physical)? That is the story and it requires us to witness the extremes of his personality, if you don't enjoy that journey or have no interest in reading a book through the eyes of a character like that then that is more than fair enough but in no way can it be called gratuitous within the context of this particular story.

Don't get worked up or upset about it. It suggests you believe we're all in danger of being corrupted by it or that there's something wrong with us for enjoying the story, which is a shame because I was under the impression we'd moved on since the publication of "Lady Chatterley's Lover" caused such an outcry.
 
Mark, the purpose of my post was to point out that you shouldn't be so quick to pat yourself on the back for not including a female character whose backstory includes rape. What you did was worse. You utterly objectified not only one woman, but an indeterminate number of women and treated their suffering (being raped) not only in an offhand and dismissive way, but then make light of it by saying how pleased the character is with having a willing partner for a change. That's some vile **** right there.

You say repeatedly that you are free to write what you like. Yes, you are, but you're simultaneously trying to avoid the responsibility and consequences of that freedom. You're rejecting the very notion that you also have to deal with the consequences of your writing, i.e. others objecting to it. Your freedom to write doesn't somehow limit others' freedom to respond. You're free to write your books, and others are free to criticize them. Yours doesn't limit ours. To think otherwise is nothing less that self-serving intellectual dishonesty.

As mentioned in some of the linked articles, grimdark is sometimes lauded as being more "realistic" than your typical fantasy fare. It's claimed that it's more "realistic" because it doesn't flinch away from the consequences of violence or the consequences of living in these kinds of worlds. Rather than no mention of blood aside from the hero wiping off their sword, grimdark battles feature more than their share of blood and gore. The cliche of simple black & white morality is abandoned for grey scale morality, and characters are often anti-heroes. All basically in an attempt to make the piece more realistic. Not that realism here in an on/off switch, but rather a scale that grimdark writers want to dial up, increasing their relative realism compared to high fantasy, for example.

Yes, rape is a reality. Yes, it happens. Yes, racism, homophobia, violence, moral cowardice, corruption, despicable leaders, etc all these things exist and have causes and consequences. But to deal with these topics so nonchalantly, so offhandedly, and refusing to fully deal with the actual consequences of some of these topics (namely rape), grimdark fantasy (and its authors) are making just as unrealistic fantasy pieces as anything Tolkien ever wrote. Focusing almost exclusively on straight white men who are borderline sociopaths, or worse, is just as unrealistic as elves, dwarves, and dragons. Having straight white men dominate the setting story after story is just as unrealistic as any magic. The glaring absence of strong, independent female leads who are more than simply objects to be used and thrown away (or dealing with them as fully formed characters in their own right, rather than the flimsiest of cardboard characters) is just as unrealistic and hackneyed as any D&D novel.

No, I don't decry the fall of Western Civilization at the hands of grimdark. "Crusaders, to me!" I'm just completely at a loss that this is the best we can do. This? Really? Infantile power fantasies of adolescent boys getting to rape and pillage and murder at whim, who eventually kill enough people that they get to be in charge of the kingdom and force everyone to obey them. That's the good stuff? That's what this is all about? It's the same arguments as the pulps, basically. We've been here before. Only this time it's a bit darker, a bit more intentionally nasty. But, the readers will eventually move on and the vast majority of the words (and their authors) will be thankfully forgotten.
 
Mark, the purpose of my post was to point out that you shouldn't be so quick to pat yourself on the back for not including a female character whose backstory includes rape.

Why should I not say 'excellent, I don't do that' for not doing what was being touted as a central thesis of gritty writing?

I should sit there, listen to

a) gritty is every woman having a rape backstory
b) you write the worst kind of grit

And I can't say 'but I haven't done that'? I have to let myself be tarred with any brush somebody cares to wave my way and let the casual observer assume I accept the charge? Bugger that. If that's patting myself on the back then I shall pat until my arm aches.

What you did was worse. You utterly objectified not only one woman, but an indeterminate number of women and treated their suffering (being raped) not only in an offhand and dismissive way, but then make light of it by saying how pleased the character is with having a willing partner for a change. That's some vile **** right there.

Well thanks for calling me vile :) I do love the one-way civility here.

You say_I_ make light of something by having a character say something? Does every character I write just parrot my views? If they kill someone I'm guilty? If they mock something am I mocking it? What about when two characters disagree... which one is me?

This "train of nameless faceless women used and raped by the male characters" is entirely created for you by 61 words in a whole book (that you've not read). I could have done the job with "they raped a lot" and used just 4 and I would still have you jeering at me...

Is your contention that to write a book which acknowleges the fact rape exists and is quite commonplace in war torn and lawless situations is some kind of heinous act in itself?

You say repeatedly that you are free to write what you like.

Actually _you_ repeatedly say that and I just quote it at you.

Yes, you are, but you're simultaneously trying to avoid the responsibility and consequences of that freedom. You're rejecting the very notion that you also have to deal with the consequences of your writing, i.e. others objecting to it.

I hesitate to interupt you in full flow making stuff up on my behalf, but that is utter nonsense. I have never once tried to avoid anything of the kind or reject anyone's complaints... I have simply

repeatedly

asked what those objections are.

All you're doing is calling me names, inventing claims for me, and inventing the content of a book you haven't read.

Your freedom to write doesn't somehow limit others' freedom to respond.

Entirely true and if I had ever said or implied such a thing then it would be worth your stating it.

You're free to write your books, and others are free to criticize them. Yours doesn't limit ours. To think otherwise is nothing less that self-serving intellectual dishonesty.

Entirely true and if I had ever said or implied such a thing then it would be worth your stating it.

Somehow you've morphed a plainly stated and repeated request to hear what the objections to grit are into a concerted effort to stop people telling me. That right there is several kinds of crazy.

You are free to stop shooting Martians.
 
Mark, the purpose of my post was to point out that you shouldn't be so quick to pat yourself on the back for not including a female character whose backstory includes rape. What you did was worse. You utterly objectified not only one woman, but an indeterminate number of women and treated their suffering (being raped) not only in an offhand and dismissive way, but then make light of it by saying how pleased the character is with having a willing partner for a change. That's some vile **** right there.

You say repeatedly that you are free to write what you like. Yes, you are, but you're simultaneously trying to avoid the responsibility and consequences of that freedom. You're rejecting the very notion that you also have to deal with the consequences of your writing, i.e. others objecting to it. Your freedom to write doesn't somehow limit others' freedom to respond. You're free to write your books, and others are free to criticize them. Yours doesn't limit ours. To think otherwise is nothing less that self-serving intellectual dishonesty.

As mentioned in some of the linked articles, grimdark is sometimes lauded as being more "realistic" than your typical fantasy fare. It's claimed that it's more "realistic" because it doesn't flinch away from the consequences of violence or the consequences of living in these kinds of worlds. Rather than no mention of blood aside from the hero wiping off their sword, grimdark battles feature more than their share of blood and gore. The cliche of simple black & white morality is abandoned for grey scale morality, and characters are often anti-heroes. All basically in an attempt to make the piece more realistic. Not that realism here in an on/off switch, but rather a scale that grimdark writers want to dial up, increasing their relative realism compared to high fantasy, for example.

Yes, rape is a reality. Yes, it happens. Yes, racism, homophobia, violence, moral cowardice, corruption, despicable leaders, etc all these things exist and have causes and consequences. But to deal with these topics so nonchalantly, so offhandedly, and refusing to fully deal with the actual consequences of some of these topics (namely rape), grimdark fantasy (and its authors) are making just as unrealistic fantasy pieces as anything Tolkien ever wrote. Focusing almost exclusively on straight white men who are borderline sociopaths, or worse, is just as unrealistic as elves, dwarves, and dragons. Having straight white men dominate the setting story after story is just as unrealistic as any magic. The glaring absence of strong, independent female leads who are more than simply objects to be used and thrown away (or dealing with them as fully formed characters in their own right, rather than the flimsiest of cardboard characters) is just as unrealistic and hackneyed as any D&D novel.

No, I don't decry the fall of Western Civilization at the hands of grimdark. "Crusaders, to me!" I'm just completely at a loss that this is the best we can do. This? Really? Infantile power fantasies of adolescent boys getting to rape and pillage and murder at whim, who eventually kill enough people that they get to be in charge of the kingdom and force everyone to obey them. That's the good stuff? That's what this is all about? It's the same arguments as the pulps, basically. We've been here before. Only this time it's a bit darker, a bit more intentionally nasty. But, the readers will eventually move on and the vast majority of the words (and their authors) will be thankfully forgotten.

Sorry but this to me is just a long winded way of saying "I don't like this type of book and I think those that do are intellectually inferior" which is pretty offensive.
 

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