HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!!

[Yavannie]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

With the way the whole Talisa/Jeyne thing turned out, this just struck me... I saw a trailer for the last episode, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCTkYpYIbvw, where you could the the Hound fighting off some men (around 00.30). If that's their take on his and Arya's showdown with the bloody mummers, might it be that we actually get to see the Hound die in the series? That would be a disappointment of epic proportions.

I can't see how they're going to drag out Arya's story for most of a whole other season without her going to Braavos a bit quicker than she does in the books. It might make sense to put her on the ship next episode, or at the very start of the next season, because the timeframe there doesn't really matter much either way. There's no reason for her to hang about in the Riverlands when there's so much to show in the House of Black and White.

That would also save them from casting Rory McCann as Sandor for upcoming seasons... If they kill him "beyond all doubt" like with Talisa, I'm going to be very upset.

 

[juleska]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

This episode may have you... um... doubting that.

No I understand what happened in the episode even though I haven't seen it yet. What I'm saying, which Culhwch also points to, is that Talisa and Jeyne are not the same person. What was the point of changing the character out? Couldn't it just as easily have been Jeyne? And actually it would make more sense in a way because Jeyne comes from a house that is one of Tywin's bannermen, hence, the Reynes of Castamere reference.

So my take is that since she was swapped out with Talisa, the show producers felt they could whatever they liked with the character. Eliminating the possibility of an heir for Robb does take away a subplot and there's hundreds of subplots in the books....they can't put them all on screen.

Honestly the only reason I can think that they would deliberately change the character when they intended to kill her off is because they didn't want "Pregnant Jeyne" to die on the show when her status is technically unknown in the books. By making her a different person completely, it's irrelevant to the books if she died or not. Robb's story is done on AGOT - TV. His story is not expressly done in ASOIAF - Book, however.

 

[Gumboot]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

No I understand what happened in the episode even though I haven't seen it yet. What I'm saying, which Culhwch also points to, is that Talisa and Jeyne are not the same person. What was the point of changing the character out? Couldn't it just as easily have been Jeyne? And actually it would make more sense in a way because Jeyne comes from a house that is one of Tywin's bannermen, hence, the Reynes of Castamere reference.

So my take is that since she was swapped out with Talisa, the show producers felt they could whatever they liked with the character. Eliminating the possibility of an heir for Robb does take away a subplot and there's hundreds of subplots in the books....they can't put them all on screen.

Honestly the only reason I can think that they would deliberately change the character when they intended to kill her off is because they didn't want "Pregnant Jeyne" to die on the show when her status is technically unknown in the books. By making her a different person completely, it's irrelevant to the books if she died or not. Robb's story is done on AGOT - TV. His story is not expressly done in ASOIAF - Book, however.

I hate to be a kill joy but George RR Martin has publicly addressed the Jeyne swap-out theory and has said the physical description disparity is merely a mistake, and Jeyne is definitely in the hands of the Lannisters. Perhaps they rewrote it to prevent the unintentional "open book" that Jeyne's storyline in the books caused.

 

[Gumboot]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

I can't see how they're going to drag out Arya's story for most of a whole other season without her going to Braavos a bit quicker than she does in the books. It might make sense to put her on the ship next episode, or at the very start of the next season, because the timeframe there doesn't really matter much either way. There's no reason for her to hang about in the Riverlands when there's so much to show in the House of Black and White.

There's very little to show in Braavos - Arya has a total of only five chapters across AFFC and ADWD combined. They'll have to substantially expand her training in order to retain her as a compelling storyline.

They've shown definite willingness to alter the timeline, however. In the books Bran and Rickon's parting (which happened in the last episode) actually happened about the same time as the Battle of the Blackwater.

I suspect next season is going to focus almost entirely on King's Landing, The Wall, and Daenerys' conquest of Meereen.

 

[Yavannie]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

There's very little to show in Braavos - Arya has a total of only five chapters across AFFC and ADWD combined. They'll have to substantially expand her training in order to retain her as a compelling storyline.

Yeah, that's where I disagree. There is heaps to show, stuff we never got to read about in the books. Come on, it's an 11-year old basically training kung fu-style at a temple to become a ruthless killer! It just begs to be expanded for a TV audience. They kept Theon strung up in a dungeon for 5 episodes to show what we didn't get to read in the books and this is a much, much better opportunity to do something like that. I think both Arya and Sansa/Alayne will have significant roles to play, particularly since the TV audience are rooting for the Starks.

 

[Tywin]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

I think both Arya and Sansa/Alayne will have significant roles to play, particularly since the TV audience are rooting for the Starks.

They will learn to admire the Lannisters as they should.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

At least they should admire Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Post mutilation Jaime and Post blackwater Lancel. Cersei is a lesson on what never to do and she does not deserve admiration.

 

[Gry Wnd]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

The show didn't address Robb making Jon the heir. So guess that won't come back up in the books, which sucks. Or at least it won't be that big of a deal. Seemed like it would from reading the books..

I think it would've helped give hope to non-book reading viewers. Maybe a passing of the torch to start rooting for Jon.

 

[joshrackley]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

In typical season-ending cliffhanger style, I think that Arya will pay her iron coin and board the Titan's Daughter in her final scene of the season. Her opening scene in the next season will show her arriving in Braavos and "enrolling" at the House of Black and White.

 

[Gumboot]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

Yeah, that's where I disagree. There is heaps to show, stuff we never got to read about in the books. Come on, it's an 11-year old basically training kung fu-style at a temple to become a ruthless killer! It just begs to be expanded for a TV audience. They kept Theon strung up in a dungeon for 5 episodes to show what we didn't get to read in the books and this is a much, much better opportunity to do something like that. I think both Arya and Sansa/Alayne will have significant roles to play, particularly since the TV audience are rooting for the Starks.

We're in violently agreement, then. You'll note I say that there's very little to her storyline in the books (five chapters) and that they'll have to expand it.

The books indicate that her training, thus far, has been decidedly boring and repetitive. To keep her alive as a principal character they'll need to show more of her training, but to keep that interesting they'll have to embellish her training significantly. Which I'm not opposed to. Arya is my favourite character, and her absence in the two most recent books sucks badly.

And the same, of course, goes for Sansa who has (I think) even less chapters in the last two books. I am pretty excited about seeing both these storylines expanded. The TV series producers said from about season 5 onwards they may start diverging from the books - that's probably the sort of thing they're talking about.

I seriously hope they scrap the Greyjoy storylines too (except Theon).

 

[Gumboot]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

The show didn't address Robb making Jon the heir. So guess that won't come back up in the books, which sucks. Or at least it won't be that big of a deal. Seemed like it would from reading the books..

Is there anyone still alive who even knows? It's kind of like Jon's parentage. Important as it might be, with only dead and decidedly absent people who know about it, it becomes irrelevant.

 

[Culhwch]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

The TV series producers said from about season 5 onwards they may start diverging from the books - that's probably the sort of thing they're talking about.

I seriously hope they scrap the Greyjoy storylines too (except Theon).

I never could see how they hoped to stay true to the books, so it's not surprising they're going to diverge. In books four and five especially a lot of stuff happens that i just don't think would translate, or keep viewers interested. I suspect there may be a fast-tracking of Dany's story, for a start. She hasn't accomplished much the last two series, so another season, season and a half of idling isn't going to wash. I'll be interested to see what they do with the whole Dorne storyline as well.

Is there anyone still alive who even knows? It's kind of like Jon's parentage. Important as it might be, with only dead and decidedly absent people who know about it, it becomes irrelevant.

Weren't the Greatjon and Maege Mormont there? The Greatjon is a captive, but still alive, and I still think Maege will turn up with Howland Reed.

 

[juleska]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

I hate to be a kill joy but George RR Martin has publicly addressed the Jeyne swap-out theory and has said the physical description disparity is merely a mistake, and Jeyne is definitely in the hands of the Lannisters. Perhaps they rewrote it to prevent the unintentional "open book" that Jeyne's storyline in the books caused.

Well, damn.

 

[juleska]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

I hate to be a kill joy but George RR Martin has publicly addressed the Jeyne swap-out theory and has said the physical description disparity is merely a mistake, and Jeyne is definitely in the hands of the Lannisters. Perhaps they rewrote it to prevent the unintentional "open book" that Jeyne's storyline in the books caused.

That is unpossible! GRRM does not make mistakes! It is known.

 

[juleska]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

They will learn to admire the Lannisters as they should.

All hail King Joff....I mean....Tommen....wait. I mean. Crap.

 

[Tywin]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

Is there anyone still alive who even knows? It's kind of like Jon's parentage. Important as it might be, with only dead and decidedly absent people who know about it, it becomes irrelevant.

I think that it becomes incredibly important actually. Mainly for the purposes of the effect that it could have on Jon Snow.

Jon Snow is a young man who doubts himself and has to work around a serious identity crisis. He doesn't know who he "should" be or what he "should" live up to.

On the other hand, I think that Aegon "Jon" Targaryen would understand that it is his place, his right, and moreover his duty to unite the seven kingdoms.

Similarly, Jon Stark would understand that his role in the world would be to restore power of his family in the north. Winter is Coming, and there must always be a Stark at Winterfell.

Jon is excellently equipped for either of these roles. As a black brother on the other hand, he seems hobbled by the limitations placed on him.

 

[Culhwch]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

That is unpossible! GRRM does not make mistakes! It is known.

I got the feeling Dance was really rushed to publication, and though it's been awhile since I read it I recall there were plenty of errors throughout, so it doesn't surprise me this slipped through.

Of course that could also be Martin throwing us off the scent, and leaving an opening for himself if he wants to pursue that angle...

 

[Gumboot]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

I think that it becomes incredibly important actually. Mainly for the purposes of the effect that it could have on Jon Snow.

Jon Snow is a young man who doubts himself and has to work around a serious identity crisis. He doesn't know who he "should" be or what he "should" live up to.

On the other hand, I think that Aegon "Jon" Targaryen would understand that it is his place, his right, and moreover his duty to unite the seven kingdoms.

Similarly, Jon Stark would understand that his role in the world would be to restore power of his family in the north. Winter is Coming, and there must always be a Stark at Winterfell.

Jon is excellently equipped for either of these roles. As a black brother on the other hand, he seems hobbled by the limitations placed on him.

Oh, I agree. It's extremely important. But there's really no way for Jon to find out, at this point, so it's all irrelevant, story-wise. I am presuming that at some point Martin will inject some way of bringing it out, but for now, it's meaningless. Which is problematic, because time is running out for Jon.

 

[juleska]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

I agree that the options have narrowed, but I think we're going to find out from one of Bran's visits to the heart tree. Or if Jojen and Meera ever cross paths with Jon, I think they know.

 

[Tywin]

Re: HBO TV series sneaking in possible hints for the book series? !!! SPOILER ALERT!!

Oh, I agree. It's extremely important. But there's really no way for Jon to find out, at this point, so it's all irrelevant, story-wise. I am presuming that at some point Martin will inject some way of bringing it out, but for now, it's meaningless. Which is problematic, because time is running out for Jon.

Howland Reed knows, and he's in the neighborhood.