Are we really the offended by swearing?

[Jo Zebedee]

It's the one word I didn't use - even though I suspect some of my characters would - as I'm not comfortable with it.

In both my Irish books - there isn't much swearing in my space opera stuff by comparison - the first curse word is used within the first 1000 words, I think. So it's laid out early and it's up to the reader to continue on or not. Like Fishbowl, for me the absence of swearing in a story where it's evident the twenty year-old half-sozzled point of view character would use it, would have me putting the book back.

Harebrain, there'll always be something to shock, it's just the words we use now may get absorbed and changed. Made up swear words, anyone?

 

[Mouse]

It's the one word I didn't use - even though I suspect some of my characters would - as I'm not comfortable with it.

Eek. Fairly sure I've used that word in emails to you before now! Sorry. Just tell me off if I do it. I'll refrain from now on.

 

[thaddeus6th]

The C word is probably the most offensive (if such they be) swear word there is.

Interestingly, swear words tend to become softer as time wears on (cf silly, naughty, mischief) whereas the C word has gone the other way. I wonder if that's due to the hard sounds involved (hard K and strong T) whereas the other examples all start and end softly.

 

[alchemist]

Yesterday, I read a book in which a female first-person narrator (and female author) used the c-word for part of her anatomy, with no sense of it being "swearing" (ie any aggression, frustration etc). I used to think this was about the worst word in the world, because I'd pretty much only ever heard it used as an insult, but used as a straightforward sexual term it seemed robbed of all its offensiveness, and became just something more earthy than the biological one. Since the f-word is being increasingly used as a straightforward term for sex, I wonder if these words will eventually lose their power as swear-words, or if they will always seem strong depending on how they're used. If they do lose their power, what might replace them?

Where I'm from, the c word is used conversationally. Sometimes it's even a term of endearment, or it's used as a synonym for "fool". They will lose their power over time, which is a good thing. Words are just words; what's important is the context they're used in and the meaning behind them.

 

[AE35Unit]

Takes real skill to create a scene in a book without swearing. Only a chosen few managed it

Personally I dont need to see it. And I skip any sex scenes as well. Boring.

 

[Boneman]

If Father Ted can say "Feck!" it's good enough for me...

"You bloody idiot," he said, waving a bloody fist. Used to get caned for saying bloody at my boarding school, even though it comes from 'by-our-lady'... Actually, I recall a friend being caned for saying 'Blinking Heck', but then the house master definitely got pleasure from beating small boys with a cane.

What's a pootie? I recall the first time an American exchange student said to me: "Go over and pat her on the fanny," and me being shocked for a week.

The 'c' word is one I never wanted to use, but I have seen it used a few times (as HB did) and it didn't bother me in the slightest. It's my choice, after all, to be offended or not. If you are offended by that word, do not spend any time in the company of the wondereful, witty, funnny and erudite Sara Pinborough... She desensitises that word quicker than anyone I've ever known.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Eek. Fairly sure I've used that word in emails to you before now! Sorry. Just tell me off if I do it. I'll refrain from now on.

I wouldn't worry, I'm close to unoffendable. plus, as Alc says, you can't avoid hearing it living here. I just prefer not to use it.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Takes real skill to create a scene in a book without swearing. Only a chosen few managed it

Personally I dont need to see it. And I skip any sex scenes as well. Boring.

The thing is, I can do this perfectly well and do for any non-swearing characters. I have 'good-living' people in my books from the Rev Paisley's neck of the woods who would bring fire and brimstone down on their heads rather than swear. It's just as easy to write a scene without swearing as it is with swearing. It's all about the character's voice. If they don't swear, the writer doesn't, if they do, the writer does but they handle it with care and don't use it as often as in real life, but for effect.

I really don't understand the attitude that it is bad writing, or simplistic, or a way to write an easier scene. The scenes with swear words in them are written in exactly the same way as those without: the skill lies in capturing the character's voice, choice words or not.

I think I'll go have a cuppa.

 

[Mouse]

I really don't understand the attitude that it is bad writing, or simplistic, or a way to write an easier scene. The scenes with swear words in them are written in exactly the same way as those without: the skill lies in capturing the character's voice, choice words or not.

I think I'll go have a cuppa.

Exactamundo.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

So writers who use so-called profanity are lesser writers, really? Wow.

Good to know that literary merit is based on whether the author chooses to use so-called vulgarity.

So is guess all these authors are ***** then: George Orwell (1984), Mark Twain (Huckleberry Finn, Celebrated Jumping Frog), Erich Maria Remarque (All Quiet on the Western Front), Toni Morrison (Beloved), Joseph Heller (Catch-22), Elie Wiesel (Night), J.D. Salinger (Catcher in the Rye), Harper Lee (To Kill a Mockingbird), Mary Shelley (Frankenstein), Upton Sinclair (The Jungle), William Golding (Lord of the Flies), John Steinbeck (Of Mice and Men), Arthur Miller (The Cruicible), Ken Kesey (One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest), Henry Miller (Tropic of Cancer), Anthony Burgess (A Clockwork Orange), Joseph Conrad (Heart of Darkness), Walt Whitman (Leaves of Grass), and who can forget all those icky sexual references in Shakespeare, plus so many more...

Nope. Nothing worth reading there.

 

[Tower75]

I really don't understand the attitude that it is bad writing, or simplistic, or a way to write an easier scene. The scenes with swear words in them are written in exactly the same way as those without: the skill lies in capturing the character's voice, choice words or not.

I think I'll go have a cuppa.

I'd agree with that. I've always said it it shouldn't be used for shock, or to replace other words, but in no way does swearing mean you're some sort of demi-author, someone clearly not highbrow enough to be considered 'good.'

 

[Ursa major]

I also had a Goodreads review for Prince of Thorns, largely positive but complaining about the use of 'f*uck' every other paragraph. I went and checked. I used the word every 39 pages on average. You would think the rape, torture, murder, and use of weapons of mass destruction might bother the person... but not a peep about that.

Some people have strange priorities.


I think I'd be irritated more than anything else if the narration, or the dialogue of a prominent character, were to be full of profanities, but not because of those profanities as such. It's more a case of more being less and the author just banging on with something unnecessarily, beyond the point when I, as a reader, know that the speech is full of swearing. Similar things that bother me are:

• dialogue filled with dialect/non-English words, so that instead of an occasional hint that the character is speaking in a different accent, reading turns into a "guess what s/he's talking about" exercise;
• over-detailed description that goes beyond adding colour and depth and becomes "I spent a week working out what the scenery looks like and I'm going to tell you all of it whether you like it or not";
• meals that are described down to the last condiment, let alone dish.

Of course, one reason that people take offence at swearing is that, in many cases, it's being used, in real life and in books, to give offence. In the latter case, there's no need for us to take offence (unless it's in the first person narrative and being directed at the reader); words are simply words, and - as Mark was implying in the quote at the top of this post - they should have far less impact than descriptions of terrible scenes and acts that contain not even the mildest words of invective.

 

[Hex]

I am offended by swearing -- and I'm supposed to be. What's the point, otherwise?

Having said that, I don't have a problem with people using it in books -- that's up to them -- but I sometimes choose not to read the book (Irvine Welsh, I am looking at you) in the same way as I'll abandon books with too much grimness or metaphors about fairies and pink ponies. I had to skim-read a whole chapter of UNWIND because I found it too horrible to read. It's a personal taste thing. I found Sarah Pinborough too much to take so I don't follow her on Twitter or look at stuff by her -- but lots of people find her wonderful, and I get that. Yey for them and for her.

I think it's unnecessary to accuse people who use swearing/ people who don't of being somehow lesser writers. There are fabulous writers in both groups.

Swearing can add realism/ a good rhythm but it's also perfectly possible to avoid it -- we don't actually write realistic dialogue anyway or it'd be full of "uh... well... um..." and people not finishing sentences or making any sense (I have just transcribed a whole heap of interviews, so I feel especially bitter about this). I include swearing in my stories, but not normally very serious swearing.

EDIT: What alc said here:

... As the Enterprise is about to fall into the atmosphere of a olanet he says "Oh s***!" That was one of the funniest thngs I'd ever seen because it had context, that of Data and his textbook soeech beforehand.

I really liked the swearing in Harry Potter, because there's not much (almost nothing?) until Mrs Weasley -- a character we know really well -- calls Bellatrix Lestrange a "bitch". And then it works because it's effective and a bit shocking (because we know what Mrs Weasley's like) and also true.

Also, I think Montero's point is a good one. In general I don't really notice swearing but if I am noticing it, as with most things like this, that tends to be because it's bothering me.

And I don't want to be precious about being sworn at by an author (obviously, I'm not) but the words are there to have an effect on the reader (ideally: "oooh! I'd like to read on.") so it's not as if they're written in a vacuum, and though I swear myself (too much), there are certain words I wouldn't say. Well, there's one in particular. And that's because I'm totally socially conditioned to be unable to say it. Pathetic, I know, but true.

 

[Montero]

And having said earlier in this thread I've not noticed swearing in SFF and that it either wasn't there, or wasn't intrusive, I now realise I haven't noticed the absence of swearing either. I've read various military SF and maybe soldiers swore, maybe they didn't, couldn't tell you, didn't notice - so don't find it unrealistic if there isn't any swearing.

I think this probably comes down to don't care

And regarding swearing in films - well I did notice the swearing at the start of Four Weddings and a Funeral and it was one of the funniest sequences I'd seen in a long time (and there were complaints from people about it too).

 

[Kissmequick]

At this point in the proceedings of this oft discussed topic I like to put forth this for your viewing pleasure

Stephen Fry on the Joys of Swearing

Note: Contains swears

Am I offended when someone swears at me? Sometimes, yes.

Am I offended by the existence of swears? Or by fictional characters swearing at fictional situations/people? Um, no. That would be silly. Not offended, and not bothered by swears turning up. In some books I'd think it weird if characters don't swear. It suits other books to be swear free.

Now, some prefer not to read swears in their fiction at all and that is cool if that's your thing. Personally, while some of my characters swear and some don't, i all comes down to style, to character, to tone. And possibly to audience (No using the phrase "Bugger off you **** nugget" in a kid's picture book!) But other than that, I certainly don't think it's any less of a book because it's got a certain word in. That'd be like saying the best book ever is one that never uses the word "Pomegranate"

A swear is a word. A word is our tool. We use the word/tool best suited for the job. Even if it IS pomegranate

 

[alchemist]

And having said earlier in this thread I've not noticed swearing in SFF and that it either wasn't there, or wasn't intrusive, I now realise I haven't noticed the absence of swearing either. I've read various military SF and maybe soldiers swore, maybe they didn't, couldn't tell you, didn't notice - so don't find it unrealistic if there isn't any swearing.

I think this probably comes down to don't care

And regarding swearing in films - well I did notice the swearing at the start of Four Weddings and a Funeral and it was one of the funniest sequences I'd seen in a long time (and there were complaints from people about it too).

I remember the start of 4W&AF, and the start of The Commitments (first dialogue: F*** off!), and have to say I didn't like them. It seemed too obvious a use (for the first, it juxtaposed the words with a posh voice, and the second said "it's grim here). I'd contast these with the Star Trek film where Data got emotiins. As the Enterprise is about to fall into the atmosphere of a olanet he says "Oh s***!" That was one of the funniest thngs I'd ever seen because it had context, that of Data and his textbook soeech beforehand.

 

[HareBrain]

a olanet

An olanet.

 

[Mouse]

At this point in the proceedings of this oft discussed topic I like to put forth this for your viewing pleasure

Stephen Fry on the Joys of Swearing

Bloody love Stephen Fry.

 

[AE35Unit]

I have noticed swearing appearing on here of late!

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Older Chronners may recall this sketch from Dick Emery.