Are we really the offended by swearing?

[Timba]

If the language is "in character" I really do not notice the swearing. If not "in character" and I do happen to notice it then it has either served its purpose (heavy emphasis) or is inappropriate and something else should have been used.


I cannot imagine getting offended by it though, I save that for things like religious extremism, climate change denial, evolution denial, racism, sexism etc.

 

[Montero]

At least, HB, your mother didn't use the racist version of that swear word, i.e.: "Botheration!

Is this a joke, or is it really? Racist that is?

In terms of swearing, my father used substitute words until we got into double numbers, then he would occasionally vent his feelings in traditional manner. I can't actually remember my mother swearing beyond drat, bloody or damn.
I learnt all the words at school before father started using them. Didn't actually know the meaning or derivation just that they were rude. I remember mother's glare the first time I used b****r.

 

[Montero]

The word has a number of meanings (including in the software industry, where it's an alternative to "fudge", apparently), but it is a handy swear word in its own right.

*cough*

Yeah, same as saying a lash up (in case fudge is ambiguous for some people, since it is used as a substitute for F)

 

[Ursa major]

Is this a joke, or is it really? Racist that is?

Weren't the four smilies enough to give you a clue?

 

[hopewrites]

No expletives, implied or real, are permitted in my parents home.
In third grade (8ish for anyone not familiar with US school grades) I fell on my bottom and said "ow! I fell on my butt!" Then immediacy claped my hands over my mouth with the kind of horror reseved for slipping an f-bomb, and pleaded with my friends to keep it quiet that I'd swore. (Butt being the swear word incase, like any sensible human, you were scratching your head in wonderment)

I picked up a few words from my x and friends. But still only use swear words when I want the intensity and depth of my darker emotions to have quick and shocking vent.

This has its advantages, as swear words loose meaning in the mouths of those who use them frequently, they retain vast amounts of power when coming from those who dont. I called someone an ass once and my close friends immediately hated him. Anyone depraved enough to get me to call them an ass must be quite horrid indeed. One of those friends confided to me later in privet that hearing me curse was as shocking as if their dog started speaking fluent english and propositioned them which made me laugh and restored a normal feeling to our conversation.


Conversly, swearing in others hasnt shocked me since middle school (age 11-13) I quickly understood that others had not the strict upbringing I'd had with regard to language and its varied uses. The way others spoke always fascinated me, why some people chose one word and others chose another ... that sort of thing. This stood me in good ground when i worked customer service, people could stand and swear till they were quite exausted by it and i would stand there listening as politely unaffected as if they were talking about nothing at all. This usually created an opening for me to offer a bit of sympathy and jump to "lets fix that shall we" much faster than those who engaged emotionally in the frustration of the person they were ment to help.

 

[alchemist]

4W - it was running so much dialogue by the re-use of one word that was what creased me up the most and then, finally, an unexpected word.

It could have had the dialogue of "oh no!", "what?", "we've overslept, look at the time", "oh no" etc but that wouldn't have been as funny. (And as a sideways thought, how many times on here has it been discussed that the alarm clock rang/didn't ring is an overdone book opening ? )

Fine by me if you didn't like it, just explaining why I did like it

Commitments I watched once a long while back and thought it good, but haven't been moved to re-watch and don't remember the dialogue.

You clearly remember 4W in far more detail than me. I bow to your knowledge

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Technically, we weren't allowed to swear. Practically my bros were foul mouthed sods... But we'd still a clip on the ear if we swore in front of Mum.

 

[Parson]

No expletives, implied or real, are permitted in my parents home.
In third grade (8ish for anyone not familiar with US school grades) I fell on my bottom and said "ow! I fell on my butt!" Then immediacy claped my hands over my mouth with the kind of horror reseved for slipping an f-bomb, and pleaded with my friends to keep it quiet that I'd swore. (Butt being the swear word incase, like any sensible human, you were scratching your head in wonderment)


(Perhaps you can imagine the lecture I got when I was caught saying "Gosh! I did it." when I scored a touchdown playing touch football in our backyard at about 8.)


I picked up a few words from my x and friends. But still only use swear words when I want the intensity and depth of my darker emotions to have quick and shocking vent.

This has its advantages, as swear words loose meaning in the mouths of those who use them frequently, they retain vast amounts of power when coming from those who dont. I called someone an ass once and my close friends immediately hated him. Anyone depraved enough to get me to call them an ass must be quite horrid indeed. One of those friends confided to me later in privet that hearing me curse was as shocking as if their dog started speaking fluent english and propositioned them which made me laugh and restored a normal feeling to our conversation.

(This is similar to a teacher sending only one child a year to the principal for discipline. The less you do it, the more effective it is.)

Conversly, swearing in others hasnt shocked me since middle school (age 11-13) I quickly understood that others had not the strict upbringing I'd had with regard to language and its varied uses. The way others spoke always fascinated me, why some people chose one word and others chose another ... that sort of thing. This stood me in good ground when i worked customer service, people could stand and swear till they were quite exausted by it and i would stand there listening as politely unaffected as if they were talking about nothing at all. This usually created an opening for me to offer a bit of sympathy and jump to "lets fix that shall we" much faster than those who engaged emotionally in the frustration of the person they were ment to help.

I am jealous of this. When people are swearing at me, my blood boils. I can generally be very kind in person, but I will replay the whole episode in my mind over and over again.


So, back on topic. When I read profane language in a book it probably strikes me a lot more forcefully then it might someone else. However, your earlier point about the effect of the cursing for someone who doesn't do it normally, would seem to have the same kind of intensity in a book that doesn't normally use it in dialogue.

 

[Bick]

So writers who use so-called profanity are lesser writers, really? Wow.

Good to know that literary merit is based on whether the author chooses to use so-called vulgarity.

So is guess all these authors are ***** then: George Orwell (1984), Mark Twain (Huckleberry Finn, Celebrated Jumping Frog), Erich Maria Remarque (All Quiet on the Western Front), Toni Morrison (Beloved), Joseph Heller (Catch-22), Elie Wiesel (Night), J.D. Salinger (Catcher in the Rye), Harper Lee (To Kill a Mockingbird), Mary Shelley (Frankenstein), Upton Sinclair (The Jungle), William Golding (Lord of the Flies), John Steinbeck (Of Mice and Men), Arthur Miller (The Cruicible), Ken Kesey (One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest), Henry Miller (Tropic of Cancer), Anthony Burgess (A Clockwork Orange), Joseph Conrad (Heart of Darkness), Walt Whitman (Leaves of Grass), and who can forget all those icky sexual references in Shakespeare, plus so many more...

Nope. Nothing worth reading there.

This is a classic example of a logical fallacy. No one (as far as I can see) has equated profanity with poor writing, that would be ludicrous. Nice list of books, I've read and enjoyed most of them.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

One of the things I like about Chrons is that people here generally avoid obscene, scatological, and profane language. That enhances the hospitable quality considerably.

And incidentally, all of these seem to this writer to suggest a juvenile quality in writers who do use them.

Takes real skill to create a scene in a book without swearing. Only a chosen few managed it

This is a classic example of a logical fallacy. No one (as far as I can see) has equated profanity with poor writing, that would be ludicrous. Nice list of books, I've read and enjoyed most of them.

Actually, both the above posts did. One indicated to use swear words suggested a juvenile quality in the writer, the other hinted at a lack of skill if you chose to do so. That to me is an intimation that if you choose to include swear words in your mss you are lacking as a writer.

Which is, indeed, ludicrous.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

This is a classic example of a logical fallacy. No one (as far as I can see) has equated profanity with poor writing, that would be ludicrous. Nice list of books, I've read and enjoyed most of them.

Really? Okay then. How about these...

I have never been "offended" by it in the sense that you mean. It however is a symptom of bad taste and poor writing on the part of the author that he/she needs to use four letter words or expressions and descriptions that are vulgar or crass to convey reality or realism...

The best example I can think of is an old classic movie "On Golden Pond." For the life of me, a movie I should love, comes across to me as fatally flawed because of one character's continual use of profanity. I think making it worse was the fact that he was a college professor, who should have been more eloquent enough to express himself outside of profanity.

Now on a certain level I know that this is somewhat stupid. I read a lot of military SF and there is often killing is job lots, at least in parts of the book. And I'm not off put by that.

So for me, the answer to the question is yes, I am offended by swearing.

One of the things I like about Chrons is that people here generally avoid obscene, scatological, and profane language. That enhances the hospitable quality considerably.

And incidentally, all of these seem to this writer to suggest a juvenile quality in writers who do use them.

Takes real skill to create a scene in a book without swearing. Only a chosen few managed it

Personally I don't need to see it. And I skip any sex scenes as well. Boring.

And hey, look at that. This one's from you saying exactly what you said no one was saying. Fancy that...

Yes, I tend to align more with Extollager and Parson on this one. I don't much like profanity in books; I suspect this is largely because (in my experience) it occurs in less well written literature in the main. Sometimes profanity adds verisimilitude to the situation or character and to not have the swearing might seem out of character, but in the main it seems to be used to add "grit" to cover up a limited ability to write well.

 

[Ursa major]

I think the two "sides" have offered enough evidence on this side issue for people to make up their own minds as to whether or not any insult appeared in this thread, or was meant. (And as to whether people actually read their own posts.... ) Interesting as it has been, any further comment on this diversion seems likely to head into angels dancing on pinheads territory (or worse).

So perhaps we can resume the thread's original path.

 

[ratsy]

I also grew up in a house where there was no swearing. None. Kind of along the same token of Hope saying Butt...that wasn't allowed. I suppose I picked up swearing somewhere around the age of 14 when friends started. I do remember one instance when I was in grade 6 when a girl I liked said a swear word...I can't remember which one...and I was so shocked!

I have actually never sworn in front of my parents. It was kind of amusing actually (sorry for going off topic) The last year my mom was alive, I took her to see The King's Speech. We had a great time and we both even laughed at the scene where George went off and swore like a sailor...the F bomb repeatedly! She later told my oldest brother what a great movie it was and highly recommended it to him, A couple weeks later talking on the phone she told me how bad she felt recommending it to him because she thought he would be so offended at the swearing. I had a good laugh at the irony.

To get back on track...yes, I swear, no I am not offended in the right scenarios. Over using swear words like over using any words, is annoying, whether in film, life or a book. Coming from my background I was actually surprised when I started writing that I would type swear words with out thought. I still don't know how much swearing I will use in my writing...again, depends on character and scenario.

When it comes to reading, I am not offended. I have read GRRM, Scott Lynch, Joe Abercrombie, Francis Knight, and Stephen King without being offended by any of the language.

To be honest, I am reading On Writing and I find it refreshing when King is giving advice on how to write and he is dropping the f-bomb in examples. Classic King.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Wow...just I missed this one

...and I don't really have anything major to add anyways! Swearing is fine by me, as long as it's well thought out and serves the author's purpose well. I actually like it in dialogue when it suits the character, because people do swear in real life--some swear a lot. I know I did prior to my daughter's birth. Now not as much.

 

[Bick]

I think the two "sides" have offered enough evidence on this side issue for people to make up their own minds as to whether or not any insult appeared in this thread, or was meant. (And as to whether people actually read their own posts.... ) Interesting as it has been, any further comment on this diversion seems likely to head into angels dancing on pinheads territory (or worse).

So perhaps we can resume the thread's original path.

Fine by me; I don't see any conflict or inconsistency, but I'm happy to stop that particular discussion if you like.

To answer the OP's original Q: I'm not offended by profanity in the least.

 

[Tower75]

Well, this has become a tad... unexpected. I was expecting a 2 page thread, maybe.

Thanks for the comments. Very varied.

The main point of the OP was mainly: "...but why is it 'acceptable' for mega-violence and general nasty stuff to be classed as okay, but people get all odd over 'bad words?'"

That's the main issue that I can't wrap my brain around. It's only swearing that increases age certificates. Take video games, when my brother was 15 or so, my mum was happy for him to play an Xbox game where you can chainsaw someone in half, but she got funny when my brother swore in front of her.

Maybe that's the whole point. We know the difference between fiction and reality, but maybe swearing's 'too real' or something, I don't know.

Anyway, people have said their peace, so if the Mod wishes, you can close the thread.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Ach, don't worry about it, we can get a six page thread out of where to put a semi colon.

I'm not actually sure about the certificate stuff, btw. We do a fair bit of vetting in this house at the moment, due to having an 8 and 13 year old, and some of the fifteens haven't got that much swearing but lots of violence - I'm thinking of something like Mummy Returns where it wasn't the language that we were worried about but the fact it might scare the life out of the wee one (she loved it.) or The Hobbit which was a 12a and had no bad language that I picked up. So, I think it's only one criterion amongst many.

Also, for books we don't have age restrictions, so it becomes an even more moot point. The book I have by far the most swearing in is the youngest age range I've written to ( although, admittedly, it's the late teen market). But if my thirteen year old wants to read it - and she does - I'd let her. There is nothing in it that she doesn't hear in the playground or see in You Tube. Frankly, I'd rather she read a few f**ks and b*****ds than watch the latest Miley Cyrus video, and that's pretty freely available everywhere.

 

[Boneman]

So writers who use so-called profanity are lesser writers, really? Wow.

Good to know that literary merit is based on whether the author chooses to use so-called vulgarity.

So is guess all these authors are ***** then: George Orwell (1984), Mark Twain (Huckleberry Finn, Celebrated Jumping Frog), Erich Maria Remarque (All Quiet on the Western Front), Toni Morrison (Beloved), Joseph Heller (Catch-22), Elie Wiesel (Night), J.D. Salinger (Catcher in the Rye), Harper Lee (To Kill a Mockingbird), Mary Shelley (Frankenstein), Upton Sinclair (The Jungle), William Golding (Lord of the Flies), John Steinbeck (Of Mice and Men), Arthur Miller (The Cruicible), Ken Kesey (One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest), Henry Miller (Tropic of Cancer), Anthony Burgess (A Clockwork Orange), Joseph Conrad (Heart of Darkness), Walt Whitman (Leaves of Grass), and who can forget all those icky sexual references in Shakespeare, plus so many more...

Nope. Nothing worth reading there.

Brilliant...

At this point in the proceedings of this oft discussed topic I like to put forth this for your viewing pleasure

Stephen Fry on the Joys of Swearing

Wonderful. Can't recall where I heard it, but Stephen Fry pointed out the ridiculousness that most swear words are to do with sexual function, as a pleasurable experience. He suggested we use the words 'torturer' or 'rapist' if we really want to insult someone, because there is no possible connotation attached to those words, that is in any way anything other than horrible.

Anecdotally, and I'd probably laugh if I saw this in a book, a friend of mine and I were walking back from a game of football our team had won (Brighton and Hove Albion beat Crystal Palace, but I can't recall the score, since it was in the 80s..) and a Palace 'fan' threw a stone, which my quick-thinking friend plucked from the air, and deposited it over a bridge onto the railway bank. The palace yob, frustrated, yelled from across the safety of the road "You w**ker!", to which my friend put an exagerrated hand to his chin, thought deeply, and called back: "And your point is?" The Palace fan opened his mouth to reply, but couldn't think of a suitable insult to hurl back, so just repeated his previous words. "You've been watching me, haven't you?" called my friend, which sent the palace man incandescent with rage, so he stepped into the road, and got clouted by a police car, that fortunately was only doing about ten miles an hour, but he got up and kicked it in rage, was arrested and bundled into the back of the car. We made it worse by laughing so much we had to support each other, and my friend eventually recovered enough to say "Ah, the perils of imprecation."

 

[HareBrain]

He suggested we use the words 'torturer' or 'rapist' if we really want to insult someone, because there is no possible connotation attached to those words, that is in any way anything other than horrible.

Or "merchant banker", which probably has more effect now without being translated from rhyming slang.

 

[Ursa major]

Whereas, before, it was somewhat of a rank outsider in terms of its effect.