Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) (WITH SPOILERS!)

[Boneman]

I loved it. Have to see it again to see what I missed. But until I read Bugg's post above, I hadn't realised how little I actually care for the new characters. Not sure if this is the script, or me, but I do feel somewhat emotionally detached from them. I have a feeling it's because in Episodes IV,V and VI we stuck very closely with Luke Han and Leia, it seemed to be one story with three characters. Letting Poe and Finn and Rey all have separate story arcs meant I'm not engaging with them nearly as well. I'm sure they'll grow on me. And I cared far more for Jyn Erso in Rogue One than I do in these films. Also slightly too many echoes of the original films regarding Rey and Kylo Ren. But the spectacle is gob-smacking!!

 

[reiver33]

They should have left Leia drifting amongst the stars, forever, as a fitting send off. Her subsequent plot input was minimal and the inspirational dialogue could have been reshot with another character. Plus the hug between her and Luke seems to go against the 'astral projection' invulnerability he displayed against blaster fire and Ren's light sabre.

 

[Judderman]

Was their any point in having Leia survive and in such an incredible way? Could she not have just avoided the brunt of the explosion? It seems her survival was only to tempt Luke back. That's it. Still no need for her to show power greater than any Jedi.

 

[Judderman]

I think I would prefer to watch Phantom Menace again then either of the two sequels. That has the race which is a lot of fun and I don't recall it being boring, for all its flaws.

 

[night_wrtr]

The Leia scene was brilliant. It was one of my predictions she would use the force in this movie. The books all but suggested as much if you read them. And Luke reacted to Yoda hitting him with his staff, so the later scene with Leia isn't an issue imo.

TLJ will end up being top 2 of my favorites. Fans wanted different and we got it. Plenty of things to talk about but it certainly was a star wars movie from beginning to end.

 

[Brian G Turner]

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Use the "New Posts" link instead, as you'll be able to avoid the many threads we have that contain spoilers!
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As for the film itself: mostly enjoyed it, but it did feel a bit rough and too rushed in parts.

Negatives:
- The Princess Leia, floating Hindu Goddess bit, was like something from a Bollywood film and looked silly.
- Finn's subplot to the casino world was completely pointless and had no overall impact on the plot. It seemed the writer struggled to involve him - him wandering about leaking at the start was another silliness and unfortunately set a low tone for the film.
- I want to like the new characters, but I'm more emotionally invested in the older ones - yet they don't actually really seem to do much in the new trilogy - more ornamentation than involvement, and too easily killed off.
- would be nice if space is treated as big and not fish-bowl sized
- I thought that planets was supposed to contain a heavily armoured Rebel base, rather than just a mine with a big door and some turrets?
- Please stop letting the Imperials First Order just pull out bigger and bigger guns at every challenge - aren't Star Destroyers supposed to be powerful enough?

Positives:
- Diverse and inclusive, which was good to see;
- Not all heroes are heroic, which was a great sub-theme to play with
- Really enjoyed Grumpy Luke.
- Tension between Kylo and Rey
- Kylo fighting with Rey
- Luke vs Kylo
Also! The Millenium Falcon through the red salt tunnels was a great tribute to the fire flight in Return of the Jedi - they even played the same theme tune!

Generally I found the positives outweighed the negatives, but I'm still surprised by the sloppiness of the writing/plotting. Kathleen Kennedy could benefit from getting John Lasseter and the Pixar team to help tighten and polish these stories - they are part of the same company!

EDIT: The big reason I went to see it at the cinema rather than wait for the DVD was because I didn't want to see any spoilers about Rey's parents. In the end, it was irrelevant anyway. I think I'll wait for the DVD of the third film.

 

[KGeo777]

Seeing the Empire Strikes Back without any prior knowledge in 1980 was a grand experience but the spaceship has long since sailed. If Lucas had made sequels in the late 1980s he could have milked it to more favorable reception, at least for its FX--by the mid 90s the awe factor of a Star Wars movie was diminished. The Phantom Menace was a very disappointing cinema experience.

Have to sympathize with Mark Hamill. He was waiting to return to the character since the early 80s and talked about it for decades. I am sure he was expecting a traditional Arthurian kind of fantasy story arc--at least something similar to what Alec Guinness did in the original film (but with more athleticism, as he trained for it). Should have known that even a beta hero character like Luke was too traditionally patriarchal for Disney's executive board. And the writer-director said the movie that inspired him the most was ANNIE HALL. Talk about a giant red flag, in all senses of the term.

The only hope for traditional storytelling is small studios with no connection to Hollywood majors or their Wall Street friends.

 

[Brian G Turner]

One continuity issue that really bugs me - when the starship was turned and driven at light speed into the pursuing fleet to destroy it, the question arises of why no one ever did this against the Death Star or Planet Killer?

 

[KGeo777]

Speaking of Death Stars-one of the ideas in Lucas' treatment for the 7-9 films was that the second Death Star was submerged under water (not sure where--Endor?). I do like that idea--could be a visually impressive environment to explore.

 

[Judderman]

One continuity issue that really bugs me - when the starship was turned and driven at light speed into the pursuing fleet to destroy it, the question arises of why no one ever did this against the Death Star or Planet Killer?

Yes it seemed like the suicidal attack was a new idea for Star Wars. Then Finn attempted one very soon afterwards. Plus the bomber within explosion range of the target Dreadnought early in the film.

KGeo...Surely there has been enough Deathstars in this series already. Also it is a gigantic thing. Though having part of it underwater and explorable could be very interesting.

 

[Dave]

I quite liked how Kylo Ren manouvered his rise to becoming Supreme Leader. It was very Rule of Two. It must be extremely difficult to plot such a thing, considering Snoke could read this thoughts through the Force.

I also liked this. It was a double, double bluff - almost like a "caper" movie or Mission Impossible.

I didn't like the how close together the Resistance bombers were flying, so that when one was taken out most of the rest were destroyed in the explosion and wreckage.

Also, they would only work within a planetary environment (with the bombs falling by gravity) and yet they were 'spacecraft bombers'? No, I didn't get that at all.

I liked it a whole lot more than I liked The Force Awakens. It was not a perfect film by any means, and I preferred Rogue One to be perfectly honest, but I thought this was a good step forward from a lacklustre start to this trilogy.

I agree with that, I can't agree with this:

I think I would prefer to watch Phantom Menace again then either of the two sequels. That has the race which is a lot of fun and I don't recall it being boring, for all its flaws.

Although, the race is good, and the prequels have grown on me over time. The Porgs are funnier than Jar Jar Binks.

All the island animals were strange and amusing. I agree that they could have spent more time exploring that aspect. Chewie was eating a roast Porg though, yes?

There was quite a lot of humour in this. People in the cinema were frequently laughing out loud. There was, the kind of Indiana Jones moment, when Rey presents the lightsabre to Luke and he throws it away. There was the part after Kylo Ren fires every gun at Luke and he walks out of the dust unscathed, and dusts off his shoulder.

The bits that didn't work for me were largely to do with the drawn-out middle portion. The excursion to Canto Bight felt like it was just thrown in there to give Finn something to do. While I liked Rose's character, and enjoyed her and Finn's chemistry, the fact that that whole thing panned out into precisely nothing was disappointing.

I have to agree and about it being too long. However, all films are this long now. I'd be fine if they had an old-fashioned interval, but I'm so dying to go to the toilet by the end that I don't enjoy these two and a half hour epics.

They should have left Leia drifting amongst the stars, forever, as a fitting send off. Her subsequent plot input was minimal and the inspirational dialogue could have been reshot with another character. Plus the hug between her and Luke seems to go against the 'astral projection' invulnerability he displayed against blaster fire and Ren's light sabre.

Yes, agree. It didn't make sense, and I agree with @Brian G Turner about her flying through space like some Bollywood Hindu Goddess.

I didn't understand why Rose stopped Finn from destroying the door ramming canon, only to almost get them both killed. I don't understand how they got picked up by the MF either. Everyone else escaped out of the back door, but they were stuck out in the front surrounded by AT-ATs.

 

[ratsy]

I liked it, through all its pointless meanderings. By far my favourite parts were the Luke parts, but I cant help but be disappointed he didn't physically leave the island.

All he really did was prevent like 20 people from being killed. He could have fought Kylo for real, and done something really valuable. Instead he astral projected, then gave up the ghost for no apparent reason. That was lazy writing IMO.

Rey was a little too naive as well. Come on. He's killed so many people and his own father, and you want to believe he will turn on the rich capitalist military that gives him everything he wants and power. If it wasn't for killing the rebellion, would have even have blood on his hands?

I think movie 9 should be from the First Orders POV and the Rebels are just crazy terrorists blowing stuff up. (i don't really mean this)

Overall, I enjoyed it. I went in not expecting much but with an open mind> After being so annoyed after seeing TFA, I wanted to chill and just soak it in. My question was, would 10 year old ratsy like this? He would have.

 

[ctg]

I was taken to an early Christmas treat and I have to say Episode 8 is the funniest SW movie, ever. The jokes are comparable to the Clone Wars and Rebels funny, but the biggest problem I had was with the thin plot. Especially with Rey's super fast training in the Porg Island.

I feel there should have been much more as Anakin spent a long time in the Clone Wars as a Jedi Knight that Kenobi didn't had time to train. It is sad that they didn't show origin story for the Jedi order. The Rebels did an excellent job on the Black Sabre, but in this one, a lot of mythology was convoluted. In fact, Old Man Luke didn't get as big role in the last series as he should on Rey's teacher.

To be honest, both Kenobi and Yoda survived the six movies, while Luke's run ended in four. He was supposed to be a grand master in Jedi training and it shows on what he did on the last planet to save the Rebel movement. I cannot think any other masters who have pulled similar kind of feature to win a battle, and the only thing that makes sense in his death is that the light sabre is an instrument for the Force User to extend their power. So when Kylo stabbed Luke in the chest, he somehow projected his power to Luke position at the ledge of Porg Island temple.

Thing is that in the Rebels series two Force Creatures has shown that level of power. The first one was Bentu unleashing his wrath on Grand Admiral Thrawn assault on Chopper Base, and the second one was Loth Wolves on transporting a group of people through Lothal. Those two events didn't kill the force users, so the only explanation I have for for Luke's death is Disney's will.

They most probably wanted to advance Rey's legend as new Chosen One and be done with Lucas Legacy, while they move forward on unleashing even more movies on the public. So, to be honest, I'm saddened by the fact they thought it was a good move to get rid of Luke and let Rey fly in dark without a guidance of a master. Frankly I think they could have made a couple of movies for Rey and Luke alone and they wouldn't even needed to tie them tightly to the movie universe.

The plot therefore was relatively thin, but that might be a sing of our times. The only bright star in this mess is the fact that Disney is working on new animated series and we might get a chance to see Master Luke, Han Solo and Princess Leia again in there.

I hope Disney will publish an extended version from this film as I think there might have been a few things that ended on editors floor before they wrapped the production. The Last Jedi has the second highest opening for this year and I believe it might even challenge Titanic's number one spot on all time most successful movie.

The Last Jedi is a true spectacle, but it loses in terms of plot and characters to the animated series. All of the characters deserved much more exploration to make this movie to be epic. Lucas Episode 7 - Empire Strikes Back did some much better on that front then this one.

Still I loved my early present. It was a treat for me. Especially I got to see on Westfield biggest screen with Mrs Grey in private box that reserve specially for the disabled people and their carers. The amount of space you get in there is luxurious.

 

[ctg]

Why Snoke had to die? Are they going to do same thing as they did with Maul and give him spider legs?

 

[Dave]

I'm not sure if this aspect demands its own thread, but after thinking over this, I'm still confused by Luke and his death -

I cannot think any other masters who have pulled similar kind of feature to win a battle, and the only thing that makes sense in his death is that the light sabre is an instrument for the Force User to extend their power. So when Kylo stabbed Luke in the chest, he somehow projected his power to Luke position at the ledge of Porg Island temple.

...the hug between her and Luke seems to go against the 'astral projection' invulnerability he displayed against blaster fire and Ren's light sabre.

To hug Leia and to have been injured by Kylo Ren's lightsabre then he would surely need to be present physically. To survive the blaster fire he would need to be only (let's call it) an 'astral projection'. So, was he something else, in between those? Or, was he both, interchangeably, at will? Was it just poor writing and I should ignore it? Or, were they telling us something new about the Force, the reason for using light sabres, and I guess also, Obi Wan Kenobi's death too?

Also, Luke said to Kylo Ren, "If you strike me down in anger then I will....." Ben Kenobi didn't say that. He said, "If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine." Was Ben just being brief? It was/is a quite important plot point and very important to Vader. In fact, with all his training, you might have thought that this would have already come up at some point before?

 

[ctg]

Was Ben just being brief?

Yeah. It's just a word play Dave.

 

[Culhwch]

Also, they would only work within a planetary environment (with the bombs falling by gravity) and yet they were 'spacecraft bombers'? No, I didn't get that at all.

This is not without precedent - we see TIE Bombers bombing the asteroid field where the Millennium Falcon is hiding in Empire. I'm happy to give this a pass, and assume that there's some form of propulsion - antigrav thrusters or some such Star Wars-y tech at play to push them downwards.

I didn't understand why Rose stopped Finn from destroying the door ramming canon, only to almost get them both killed. I don't understand how they got picked up by the MF either. Everyone else escaped out of the back door, but they were stuck out in the front surrounded by AT-ATs.

I think she stopped him because she knew it was futile - he wasn't going to stop the cannon, and it had in fact already done most of it's damage anyway. More broadly speaking she also saved him because that's how they'll win in the end. Or something. I'm paraphrasing.

On the second point, we see Finn drag Rose back into the base, and call for a medic, so it makes sense that they escaped with the others.

To hug Leia and to have been injured by Kylo Ren's lightsabre then he would surely need to be present physically.

I never got the impression that Kylo injured Luke in anyway during the fight. Luke's demise seemed more to come from the effort of the Force-projection, and it simply being his time, much like Yoda (and Ben in a way) before him.

To survive the blaster fire he would need to be only (let's call it) an 'astral projection'. So, was he something else, in between those? Or, was he both, interchangeably, at will? Was it just poor writing and I should ignore it? Or, were they telling us something new about the Force, the reason for using light sabres, and I guess also, Obi Wan Kenobi's death too?

I'm going with both, interchangeably, and no, nothing new about lightsabres or Ben's death. Also he may not have actually 'touched' Leia, but simply given the impression of touching her in her mind. Influencing thoughts are definitely a Jedi thing, after all. The dice are a little weird though, in that they persisted after his death (I think?), juuuust long enough for Kylo to pick them up before they disappeared.

I've seen quite a bit of backlash over the addition of new Force powers in this movie. I was by no means a fan of it all, but I can't fault it. To believe that the only Force powers should be those demonstrated in the previous films is a little, I don't know, close-minded? That there is a finite set of Force powers and they were all demonstrated in Episodes I-VI? The history of the Jedi goes way back, and the Force obviously beyond that. It's an all encompassing, well, force that has been shown to allow people to do many amazing things - but it should definitely just be those things previously shown, and nothing new...

Also, Luke said to Kylo Ren, "If you strike me down in anger then I will....." Ben Kenobi didn't say that. He said, "If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine." Was Ben just being brief? It was/is a quite important plot point and very important to Vader. In fact, with all his training, you might have thought that this would have already come up at some point before?

It's been forty in-universe years, Luke probably just forgot the exact phrase.

 

[Dave]

...she also saved him because that's how they'll win in the end. Or something. I'm paraphrasing.

Yes, I did get that bit

On the second point, we see Finn drag Rose back into the base, and call for a medic, so it makes sense that they escaped with the others.

Ah! I missed that. (I was dying for a pee by that point.)

I never got the impression that Kylo injured Luke in anyway during the fight. Luke's demise seemed more to come from the effort of the Force-projection, and it simply being his time, much like Yoda (and Ben in a way) before him.

That is a very interesting idea.

My point about the comparison with what Ben Kenobi said to Vader is that mention of killing "in anger" is new. It is probably what Ben should have said though. It is clear from the trilogies that it is anger leads to the Dark side. Lots of Jedi kill other Jedi but not in anger. Yoda in The Phantom Menace -

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

I expect if George Lucas was to fiddle around with the original Star Wars again, and if Alec Guinness were alive and open to it, then he would probably re-dub that speech.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I expect if George Lucas was to fiddle around with the original Star Wars again, and if Alec Guinness were alive and open to it, then he would probably re-dub that speech.

Oh, Lucas did originally write a lot more for Ben Kenobi in that shot - a whole paragraph - which was duly edited out for the finished film. You can see something of that in the video in this thread: How Editing Saved Star Wars

 

[Phyrebrat]

The non stop reference to ‘hope’ in the new batch of movies has really made me go over my WIP and edit out loads of things about ‘serendipity’ and ‘coincidence’, ‘ownership’ and ‘appropriation’ (which are themes I refer to a bit).

In Rebels, R1 & ep 7&8 we seem to be bashed on the head with it constantly to account for the ages-old addition of ‘a New Hope’ instead of ‘Star Wars’.

They really don’t need to bang on about it so much. After all Leia originally said ‘...you’re my only hope,’ and now it seems like they’re trying to make something of it all that’s not necessary.

And as far as themes go, hope is a pretty basic one.

pH