Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) (WITH SPOILERS!)

[Brian G Turner]

Btw, was the officer supporting General Hux played by Ade Edmonson?

 

[reiver33]

I certainly thought it was...

 

[The Big Peat]

Btw, was the officer supporting General Hux played by Ade Edmonson?

imdb says it was.

Disney knew what they were doing. They were teasing people, daring them to pierce the mystery around her identity. Only to deflate it completely in the next film? How could they expect anything less than a fan backlash?

This. I suppose it was a deliberate action to emphasise the change, but I'm pretty sure 99.9% of people who try putting Chekov's gun into their story then ostentatiously removing all the shells and chucking it into the bin in the third act would get told "No".

That said, I wouldn't bet against this being a long con and finding out there was something special about her parentage in the third film anyway.

 

[Culhwch]

From what Rian Johnson has said, thats definitely a possibility - he stops short of saying it is true, only that Kylo Ren believes it is true in the moment. I hope they stick with the current resolution, though I do wonder if fan backlash will make them second guess themselves...

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

There was certainly plenty of evidence that what Force users "see" isn't necessarily the truth. Kylo Ren's entire existence exemplifies that point.

 

[The Big Peat]

From what Rian Johnson has said, thats definitely a possibility - he stops short of saying it is true, only that Kylo Ren believes it is true in the moment. I hope they stick with the current resolution, though I do wonder if fan backlash will make them second guess themselves...

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but those are definitely the sort of words I'd expect from a director who's already decided to double bluff on this.

 

[Dave]

I wouldn't bet against this being a long con and finding out there was something special about her parentage in the third film anyway.

From what Rian Johnson has said, thats definitely a possibility - he stops short of saying it is true, only that Kylo Ren believes it is true in the moment. I hope they stick with the current resolution, though I do wonder if fan backlash will make them second guess themselves...

I guess the the other option is that we could find out for certain that the Force is not hereditary, and that Midi-Chlorians are actually just the visible, physical three dimensional presence some old, white guy with a greyish beard and long hair, in a white toga, with a remarkable likeness to George Lucas.

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

In the Expanded Universe, the Force was never solely hereditary. The Force manifests itself to create balance, so if everyone hangs out being Jedi all the damn time, the Force will create evil to counterbalance them.

This is why, in the Clone Wars series, characters eschewed both the Jedi and Sith orders and sought a middle ground.

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

The Force was never hereditary at all, in the films or the EU. Shmi Skywalker, Anakin's mother, wasn't Force sensitive. The Jedi Order was made of single individuals coming from various families and backgrounds, it wasn't a building full of inbred families.

The Skywalkers were the exception because Anakin was a manifestation of the Force itself, and all his descendants were therefore partly created by the Force - and I'm not saying it's a good idea, I'm just saying it's what it is.

I am really glad that Rey isn't a Skywalker and that she just happens to be Force sensitive, and I hope future instalments don't change that. But people saying that TLJ changed the game by reintroducing Force sensitive people who haven't just inherited their powers have an awfully short memory.

 

[Calum]

It will be intresting to see how history treats this film. The Prequels were generally well liked upon their release, but overtime people began to increasingly dislike them. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was once on IMDB's top 250 films, now its ranked lower than The Phantom Menace. The Force Awakens was met with near universal acclaim upon arrival yet has steadily become a deeply polarising film. The Empire Strikes Back on the other hand was quite divisive upon its release, with many reviews comparing it unfavourably to the first one, to the point where many of the cast and crew were somewhat defensives about it even years later. Despite this its reputation grew to the point where its now almost universally regarded as the best of the films. I can't help but wonder if the same will be true for The Last Jedi.

 

[Dave]

I am really glad that Rey isn't a Skywalker and that she just happens to be Force sensitive, and I hope future instalments don't change that. But people saying that TLJ changed the game by reintroducing Force sensitive people who haven't just inherited their powers have an awfully short memory.

No, it was TPM that changed the game.

"The Force is strong in my family, my father had it, I have it, my sister has it. You have that power too." Luke to Leia in TRotJ

This quote was used by Disney in the second trailer to TFA. Why was is used if not about Rey? That is why fans are annoyed, even angry.

I'm not a Star Wars fanatic, just someone trying to make sense of the nonsensical.

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

This quote was used by Disney in the second trailer to TFA. Why was is used if not about Rey? That is why fans are annoyed, even angry.

Well, like I said in my initial message, I believe fans have every right to be angry when it comes to Rey's parentage. They were lied to in TFA. I mean, when you have Luke's lightsaber actually calling out to Rey and triggering several flashbacks, including at least one of herself, you are telling your audience that Luke's lightsaber and Rey share a common history.

It was a cheap move on Rian Johnson's part to ignore these elements and rewrite her. But however cheap it was, I still think it's the right direction, and the one that should have been taken from the start.

Regarding, the ROTJ quote from Luke to Leia, this could mean anything, coming from a trailer. It wouldn't be far-fetched to think that the initial treatment for Episodes VII to IX had Leia rising to the top of the new Jedi Order or some other nonsense. I wouldn't read much, if anything, into that.

 

[SilentRoamer]

Ok so I saw the film a few days ago and here are my thoughts.

Overall thoughts
So I will probably put a review up on the Den, I really enjoyed this film. It felt a lot more original than TFA and felt like it was starting to tell a new story rather than a continuation (which although it is there are 3 distinct parts). I did find some annoyance with the lack of the vastness of space (again) and also with some of the plot holes, although a lot of them cen be explained by Science Space magic. I think Hammills acting was fantastic, he can really deliver emotions with so little dialogue.

Casino Subplot
As other have felt I think the Casino subplot served more to introduce Rose and the Codebreaker than any major plot point as it all came to naught.

Snoke
I was surprised and a little disappointed they killed off Snoke but it sort of makes sense. Snoke would have been subservient to Vader when the Sith were at the height of their power so he wasn't a particularly powerful Sith. Sure he had some pretty cool feats but we never saw him really tested and eventually Ren could lock him out of his mind, considering Reys feats at resisting Ren in TFA then Snoke can't have been all that powerful.

Reys Parentage
I think at this point it's likely that Reys parents are in fact Han and Leiai and that Ren also knows this, Although with the way Disney want to get away from the whole hereditary powers. I just think all of the evidence still points to known parentage - it makes sense that Ren and Rey are siblings - my suspicions are that they are twins.

Lukes Force Projection
I loved this bit, considering Rey and Rens physical and non physical interactions then it also makes logical sense. It is possible for a Force Projection to interact with their environment but it is not a physical interaction but a Force interaction. So Luke could put out his Force projection hand and then use the Force to apply pressure to the shake.

Cameos
Funny to see James Corden near the beginning of the film. He's one of the fighter pilots protecting the bomber squadrons and calls out "Damn they're everywhere" shortly before being incinerated. Probably about 2 seconds screen time.
@Brian G Turner it was indeed Edmondson!
Benicio Del Toro!

Comedy
Definitely the funniest Star Wars to date. The bit with Luke and the palm frond tickling Reys hand and saying "Can you feel it, can you feel it, that's the force!" was so typical Mark Hamill trolling I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote that bit.
The Porgs were really funny, especially when Chewie roars at a Porg and then did a smirk and was about to eat one as that one ran away. They are pretty funny.
Luke drinking milk from the big cow analogue was also funny.
The throwaway lightsaber gag also funny.
Yoda was great, teasing Luke as always and as others have stated puppet Yoda > CGI Yoda
Finn "leaking" gag really not funny and a few other minor flops but overall great for comedy, not quite Guardians of the Galaxy but I appreciated the humour.


Hidden Bits
I don't know if anyone caught this but the sacred Jedi texts were no destroyed. When Finn gets rescued on the Millenium Falcon he opens one of the under bed drawers to pull something out and tucked in there are all of the books that Yoda presumably destroyed when he lightning powered the old Jedi tree. You literally see them for about half a second but I definetely caught it because they were in the same order and configuration as they were when stacked on the shelf in the Jedi house. Anyone else catch that?

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

I am suddenly reminded of something...

In ANH, Obi-Wan tells Luke Darth Vader killed his father.
In ESB, Luke learns that Darth Vader is his father.

I wonder what the reaction was in 1980. Did people believe that they had been misled in the first instalment only to see their expectations crushed by this sudden revelation. I also wonder whether people thought the trade off was worth it. After all, it was, at the time, a major twist... But were there people who thought it wasn't okay for Lucas to tell the audience one thing in the first film and another in the next?

Maybe that's what prompted the addition of Obi-Wan's line regarding truth and points of view in ROTJ?

Maybe we will get something similar in Episode IX regarding Rey's history... "Well, yes, her parents were junk traders, BUT..."

 

[HareBrain]

I do wonder if fan backlash will make them second guess themselves...

Ah, lovely -- someone using "second guess" properly, rather than to mean "guess".

Now I'm here, can someone tell me why I'm reading this thread when I haven't seen the film?

 

[SilentRoamer]

In ANH, Obi-Wan tells Luke Darth Vader killed his father.
In ESB, Luke learns that Darth Vader is his father.

I'm not sure these two are mutually exclusive. I always thought Obi Wans description was accurate, the rise of the Darth Vader persona which was the Dark Side of the Force made manifest in Anakin led to Anakins "death" in that Anakin didn't exist outside of a small subset of the Vader persona. I can understand your criticism though and I think that criticism definetely has more validity in the current trilogy with regards to Reys parentage.

I would be surprised if Rey isn't Rens sister and daughter to Han and Leia, I expect they are twins and that is a reason for their strong connection. However it could be as Snoke surmises and they are the counterbalanced powers of the Force made manifest as Anakin/Palpatine were. Either way is completely logical but if it is the latter then why all the fake clues and dead avnues to something that becomes a non issue.

 

[Bugg]

I am suddenly reminded of something...

In ANH, Obi-Wan tells Luke Darth Vader killed his father.
In ESB, Luke learns that Darth Vader is his father.

I wonder what the reaction was in 1980. Did people believe that they had been misled in the first instalment only to see their expectations crushed by this sudden revelation. I also wonder whether people thought the trade off was worth it. After all, it was, at the time, a major twist... But were there people who thought it wasn't okay for Lucas to tell the audience one thing in the first film and another in the next?

I don't remember feeling misled but I do remember my 14 year-old jaw hitting the floor in the cinema

I do remember having a WTF reaction to Luke and Leia being siblings, though

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

I'm not sure these two are mutually exclusive. I always thought Obi Wans description was accurate, the rise of the Darth Vader persona which was the Dark Side of the Force made manifest in Anakin led to Anakins "death" in that Anakin didn't exist outside of a small subset of the Vader persona. I can understand your criticism though and I think that criticism definetely has more validity in the current trilogy with regards to Reys parentage.

No criticism on my part at all, I believe Obi-Wan's point of view is perfectly valid, in hindsight. But I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of an audience member at the time, who would just discover that Luke's father was very much alive in ESB. Would that audience member feel like Lucas was contradicting himself? After all, aren't we supposed to take whatever heroes in movies say at face value?

There are still many options available to whoever is writing the script of Episode IX.

Kylo Ren might have lied.
Kylo Ren might have said the truth.
Kylo Ren might have said an incomplete truth.

We'll see...

But I know for a fact that I would be disappointed if Rey turned out to be a Skywalker. I think we've all earned something more interesting than the usual "Everybody's a Skywalker" shtick.

 

[Vince W]

I don't remember feeling misled but I do remember my 14 year-old jaw hitting the floor in the cinema

I do remember having a WTF reaction to Luke and Leia being siblings, though

Yes and yes.

When Vader said 'No, I am your father.' the entire cinema gasped.

When it was revealed Luke and Leia were siblings I was 'ewwww' he kissed his sister. It's still creepy.

 

[ctg]