Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) (WITH SPOILERS!)

[Culhwch]

Found this to be an interesting article:

The 24 Biggest Questions We Have After Seeing Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Does a fair job of reasoning out some of the questions raised in the film.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Oh, that reminds me - it was a nice surprise to see Yoda again, but even better that it was in his puppet form rather than CGI look.

Another continuity issue bugs me as well - Leia was trying to run the fleet until they could make distance to make a distress call for allies. Yet Po/Finn/Rose have no problem contacting Maz Kanata - so why not just forward any such message to her to then beam out? It seemed strange that so much emphasis was put on Leia's difficulty in getting a message out, yet Finn's entire arc depended on him actually sending one. And if there was a problem with sending in hyperspace, why not just send it once they reached the casino world?

 

[Dave]

It seemed strange that so much emphasis was put on Leia's difficulty in getting a message out, yet Finn's entire arc depended on him actually sending one.

I think it is possibly still a plot error, but it might be explained that Leia was trying to send multiple encoded messages to secret locations*, while Finn was sending only one (admittedly into some kind of war zone - the whole point of the throwaway reintroduction of Maz Kanata not explained.)

*the fact that the secret locations would only be held on a database on an undefended planet where anyone passing by could get hold of them, kind of diminishes that as an explanation.

 

[Bugg]

yet Finn's entire arc depended on him actually sending one.

That hits the nail on the head, though, doesn't it? It was a stupid convenience because Rian Johnson couldn't figure out how else to give Finn and Poe anything to do.

Gaagh, the more I think about this film the more I dislike it.

 

[Judderman]

And as far as themes go, hope is a pretty basic one.

Not to mention that a lot of folks have hope. That doesn't do much for them. It is actively trying to improve the situation that matters.
The Star Wars Winner was the most hopeful side! Yippee...

Maybe they are trying to use Hope in a religious meaning. So as in faith in religion it is a kind of faith in the Force. Though hope and faith are not the same thing. Hope is not really belief.

 

[Vince W]

Just back from see The Last Jedi. For me it was a mixed retelling of Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi with a dash of New Hope.

There were some good things in there, but there was a lot of dumb too. The opening dialogue between Poe and Hux was awful. Just shoot Poe and be done. And then a single ship shooting out all those towers? Sorry, nope. It took multiple squadrons of fighters to get a few into the trench on the Death Star.

The entire casino sequence felt jammed in and pointless. But at least we see space Oliver Twist has force sensitivity.

I was very glad to see the end of Snoke. It's a lesson for every evil dictator that your most trusted people can't be. He clearly learned nothing from Palpatine's mistakes.

It was cool to see Rey and Ren fighting the crimson guard, but pointless. Ren should have just force killed the lot and be done.

There was a lot of fan service going on that was pretty much useless. Namely Chewbacca and the Millennium Falcon. They were they just to make us old timers happy and did very little to move the story along other than a taxi service and a product placement for Disney's latest toy.

The Last Jedi falls well short of what it could have been.

 

[Dave]

The Last Jedi: The most divisive film ever?

The most divisive film ever?

We seem to be out of step with most fans. Certainly some don't like it, but surely not as high as 46%.

There are a few reasons why some fans feel affronted.

The Last Jedi didn't fulfil the fan theories that had been lovingly and obsessively plotted since The Force Awakens, such as Rey's parentage and the origins of Snoke.

I was expecting to learn those, that's true, but I can still sleep nights without knowing!

Empire's Helen O'Hara explains: "There were many more characters in this instalment that weren't white men, and that has been a shift that some fans have found unconsciously upsetting or alienating. They've felt excluded by that.

Oh! Please! Are we also affronted by big walking carpets? I'm more affronted that Admiral Akbar died off camera without even a mention!

It's corny, stupid and politically correct

So caught up in being diverse and political, it forgets to tell a coherent and compelling story

I did think all the stuff about "Hope" and the "That's what friends do!" was a little corny, but for pure corn syrup they need to go back and watch the later parts of the original Star Wars once again.

 

[Lenny]

Just returned. I guess my highest praise for it is: "It's Star Wars". If you like Star Wars, this one is probably enjoyable. I don't like Star Wars.

 

[Culhwch]

If you like Star Wars, this one is probably enjoyable. I don't like Star Wars.

Apparently if you really like Star Wars, you're supposed to hate this one!

There are a few reasons why some fans feel affronted.

The Last Jedi didn't fulfil the fan theories that had been lovingly and obsessively plotted since The Force Awakens, such as Rey's parentage and the origins of Snoke.

I've seen this point elsewhere, too. I was actually listening to a podcast talking about TLJ this week (the Weekly Planet, it's great, check it out!) and one of the hosts brought up an interesting point about how Star Wars has never been about setting up the types of mysteries that the TFA did. Thinking about it, probably the biggest mystery the original trilogy set up was in Empire, when Yoda says there's another Skywalker, and by the end of that film there's some pretty solid hints that the answer is that it's Leia, anyway. (I was a toddler at the time, so I honestly don't know if there were three years of speculation surrounding this...?). The prequels have even less mystery. But TFA is practically built primarily around the mystery of Rey's parentage and, to a lesser extent, Snoke's identity. It would be akin to if in Star Wars, Obi Wan said to Luke, 'Your father was a great Jedi Knight. OR WAS HE?' [raised eyebrow].

In comparing my reaction to TFA (didn't much like it) to TLJ (liked it quite a bit), I'm now wondering if that setting up of mysteries in the first film contributed to my negative reaction, and the resolution being that, in the end, neither Rey's parents nor Snoke's true identity and history mattered all that much contributed to my positive reaction to TLJ. I really liked the resolution, but I can see how folks who'd spent two years obsessing over these mysteries could have been disappointed by the anti-climatic nature of the reveals.

Empire's Helen O'Hara explains: "There were many more characters in this instalment that weren't white men, and that has been a shift that some fans have found unconsciously upsetting or alienating. They've felt excluded by that.

This is remarkably something that I have run up against in another forum I sometimes visit - there is a distinct negative reaction to the inclusion of women, particularly, but also men who aren't white. This is a sport-oriented forum so I don't know that I should necessarily be surprised, but I still find it bizarre.

 

[Dave]

Thinking about it, probably the biggest mystery the original trilogy set up was in Empire, when Yoda says there's another Skywalker, and by the end of that film there's some pretty solid hints that the answer is that it's Leia, anyway. (I was a toddler at the time, so I honestly don't know if there were three years of speculation surrounding this...?)

I wasn't a toddler, but as you say, it was quite obviously Leia. No one saw "Luke, I am your father!" coming before it actually happened. Most speculation was around Han Solo in the Carbonite at the end of Empire. Though it was all a very long time ago. We didn't have lots of franchises with sequels - there was James Bond - but that was more about who would play him next, not cliffhangers. We also didn't have online forums and social media where these things could be discussed and built upon - I think I see a big difference between the kind of "water-cooler talk" that used to happen in offices at work, and a much more detailed work-up that can be built up over a period of time amongst members of an online group typing away during the late night.

 

[Heir]

I really liked this film, but it's like Revenge of the Sith to me. There are many things it done that I thoroughly enjoyed, mainly all the subversion. As someone who's favorite part of the franchise is Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2, I have to say, this film did a lot for me as a lifelong fan.

I said I wanted different, and I certainly got it. I have so much to say. I could discuss this film until the next episode, and beyond, but I'll just leave these simple thoughts that I had soon after watching it.

This is the point at which the franchise, and the fandom will split. This movie marks the moment at which Star Wars advances beyond being what it once was, offering a taste of the future direction. I'll admit, it was not as smooth as it could have been, and there are tons of fridge-logic inducing moments. But a flawed gem is still a gem. Not everyone agrees it's one, but for me, it's refreshing and it's bringing a lot of risk and new ambition into the franchise, something TFA didn't do.

Everyone who's saying, "I liked TFA more than TLJ", are probably more fans of the OT, and the same people who weren't too fond of the prequels. The same way people say they'd rather re-watch the prequels than TLJ, is exactly what people will say in a decade from now about TLJ, in response to a future SW film.

Thinking about it, they might have chosen the wrong film to create this divide. They began with a nostalgia fest and them slapped us with a sea of subversion. I mean, as much as I like that kind of narrative whiplash, I understand why many people do not. I knew as soon as I left the cinema that this movie would be like marmite. But I understand Rian Johnson only got informed he would be getting a trilogy, after he wrapped up production, and before any public reaction to his direction.

Not sure how smart a move that was. But at least I know the next trilogy will certainly be something unlike anything we've ever had in Star Wars before, and that's why some of us are truly excited. What those who ain't as excited probably don't realise or want to admit, is that they're attached to the old style of Star Wars. That's fine, but things change and progress. The franchise is 40 years old. It had to happen sometime, and I doubt there's any way Johnson could have made it a smooth switch for everyone.

Sure, some people are okay with different, but just didn't like the directing or the writing. I agree it certainly could have been better at points, but again, the risks resulted in some truly fresh feelings.

Once again, maybe they should have left all this new stuff for the non-Skywalker trilogy, and gave J.J. Abrams these episodes, granting fans their long-awaited conclusion, in true nostalgia fashion.

But then... isn't that what everyone, including myself, complained about last time?

 

[Dave]

I agree that this is the start of a new direction, but I can't agree with those sweeping statements about why older fans would never like it. I liked it myself (critical of it for sure) but I can certainly see why not answering those questions about Rey's parentage and Snoke would annoy many fans. That has little to do with liking the earlier films more, as they were questions only set up in TFA.

...I understand Rian Johnson only got informed he would be getting a trilogy, after he wrapped up production...

Given what goes on in Hollywood, and the number of directors they have already cycled through, if Rian Johnson actually directs all of the next three films then I'll eat my Porg!

 

[Jax]

Ive generally liked TFA and TLJ despite all the flaws.
However I cant escape a nagging doubt thats bugging me. Why on earth couldn't we have had Han, Luke, Leia and Chewy together at some point. Heck throw in the droids and the Falcon and I think it would have been awesome. Off on one last adventure together like old times. I wanted to see their friendships/relationships after all these years, I wanted the interplay/chemistry between them. Just hearing Luke say "where's Han?" gave me goosebumps. Such a HUGE missed opportunity.

And for anyone who can't quite put their finger on whats missing from the new films, its simple. Vader.
For me, his appearance at the end of Rogue 1 was the single greatest scene of any Star Wars film since ROTJ.

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

Still no need for her to show power greater than any Jedi.

Yeah I'm not convinced the power to float a few feet in a vacuum is a power greater than any Jedi when Luke can astrally project an entire battle without his Force-sensitive opponent twigging at any point that he's fighting an illusion.

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

Ren should have just force killed the lot and be done.

It's worth bearing in mind that Praetorian Guard are Force users themselves, with cortosis weapons. They were, most likely, the other students that Ben took with him after he thought he'd killed Luke.

What prevents Praetorian Guard becoming full Sith is active suppression of their Force powers by their Emperor / Supreme Leader. With Snoke dead that actually would have left them more powerful than before his death.

 

[The Big Peat]

I did think all the stuff about "Hope" and the "That's what friends do!" was a little corny, but for pure corn syrup they need to go back and watch the later parts of the original Star Wars once again.

Corn syrup as an ingredient in a balanced whole is delicious. Corn syrup all by itself is (presumably) not very nice.

And the same goes for corniness in films. If the corny moments are integrated into the film - if they feel like logical conclusions, are appropriate for the tone, etc.etc. - then they're great. If they blindside us, if they feel illogical, then they become jarring and bad.

YMMV on which corny moment is which but I can totally see how someone can like the corn in one and not in the other. Personally I thought the corniness in The Last Jedi was definitely of the latter.

 

[Heir]

Like I said, some people won't like it for the writing or directing.

But Rey's parentage was answered, people just didn't like the answer. I'd say it would be worse if there was no answer whatsoever despite setting it up as though there would be.

Snoke was overblown by YouTubers and theorists who hype up the slightest detail. How anyone realistically believed Mace Windu was Snoke, or that if he was, it would be a clever/satisfying twist, is something that escapes me.

My point about people not wanting anything different, is that they would rather Snoke be Windu or Rey be yet another Skywalker, than both of them being nobody of particular import.

That's not very Star Wars, and that's bugging people. But I think that's the point. What is "Star Wars" is changing now.

The only reason a lot of people liked Rogue One was because Vader was in it. I barely hear anyone talk about the new characters or scenes.

This film didn't rely on nostalgia to tell its story. Did it present that story in the best way? Certainly not.

But there was no way this film could be fresh, not as "bad" as the prequels, respect the originals, and pave the way for new things, without upsetting a good amount of people.

I think Daisy Ridley made a good point when she said that they're trying so hard to make new things, but people just keep trying to tie it all back to the old stuff.

Trust me, I understand the temptation to do it. I loved the old canon. I grew up with the prequels. But seriously, I think we just need to "let the past die"... or at least, not hold us back.

Hopefully the next film's directing will make up for it.

 

[Culhwch]

Given what goes on in Hollywood, and the number of directors they have already cycled through, if Rian Johnson actually directs all of the next three films then I'll eat my Porg!

My understanding is he is conceiving and overseeing the story, and only directing the first, with a new director for each subsequent film.

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

But Rey's parentage was answered, people just didn't like the answer. I'd say it would be worse if there was no answer whatsoever despite setting it up as though there would be.
(...)
My point about people not wanting anything different, is that they would rather Snoke be Windu or Rey be yet another Skywalker, than both of them being nobody of particular import.

I don't think that's being very fair to the audience.

People would have been just fine had Rey been introduced as just another random character in a vast galaxy where everything does not have to be connected to the Skywalkers.

But her parentage and identity were set up as a big tease by the previous film, and Disney shot themselves in the foot by retconning her as a random woman whose parentage was of no import in The Last Jedi.

- She is one of very few characters in the Star Wars universe whose surname is not known. Of course that raises questions.
- Touching Luke's lightsaber triggers several visions, including one of herself at a young age, crying after a ship flies away, presumably with her parents on board.
- Maz Kanata asks Han Solo "So, who is the girl?" and the film immediately cuts to the next scene, without showing so much as a reaction on Solo's part, again, raising questions.
- She was set up as way too powerful for a random Force sensitive. Even Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One, didn't display such an ease with the Force before he was taken in and trained by his Jedi masters. She fought and beat Kylo Ren, a Jedi with years of experience and Anakin's blood running through his veins.

Disney knew what they were doing. They were teasing people, daring them to pierce the mystery around her identity. Only to deflate it completely in the next film? How could they expect anything less than a fan backlash?

 

[ctg]

/Film has the exclusive details, which include an elaborate scene involving the Ahch-To Caretakers and a famous shot from the behind-the-scenes footage released this summer. The entire sequence was filmed but cut from the final product.

According to the site, which confirmed the information with multiple sources, after Luke and Rey talk about the history of the Jedi, boats are seen coming to Ahch-To. Rey inquires and Luke says they’re bandits who regularly terrorize the Caretakers. Outraged, Rey says she wants to help, but Luke tells her if she helps, they’ll come back stronger and in greater numbers next time. A true Jedi would let it happen and keep the balance.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/report-heres-what-lukes-third-lesson-to-rey-in-the-las-1821467308