Star Trek - Discovery - 1.10: Despite Yourself

[Dave]

I've been reviewing the Enterprise and TOS mirror universe episodes. I doubt Hoshi Sato was successful in attacking Earth and becoming Empress. If she was and the Terran Empire had had hold of the USS Defiant's advanced technology, then it seems unlikely that the technological level would be so comparable when Kirk visited. The only explanation is that very shortly after the end of Enterprise episode the Terran Empire destroyed the Defiant and all aboard her. In any case, would Hoshi still be Empress after 100 years? No, I think it will be Philippa Georgiou or one of the female admirals we have seen in Discovery. Though given how male-orientated the mirror universe was shown to be, it might not have so many women in positions of power. The mirror universe Spock only rose to power years after meeting with Kirk, so Spock will not be Emperor.

What do you call the alternative mirror universe individual to distinguish them? We can't keep writing mirror universe Lorca. I suggest alt-Lorca, or if there are more, then cis-Lorca and trans-Lorca, or else Lorca¹, Lorca² and Lorca³???

 

[Eway]

What do you call the alternative mirror universe individual to distinguish them? We can't keep writing mirror universe Lorca. I suggest alt-Lorca, or if there are more, then cis-Lorca and trans-Lorca, or else Lorca¹, Lorca² and Lorca³???

I think trans-Lorca may be a bit confusing for some.

 

[farntfar]

Though given how male-orientated the mirror universe was shown to be, it might not have so many women in positions of power.

A bit later perhaps but didn't they have a real nasty and powerful Kira Nerys

 

[Dave]

A bit later perhaps but didn't they have a real nasty and powerful Kira Nerys

Oh yes later, but Marlena Moreau was quite demure (though she had no qualms exterminating people with that Tantalus field button) and Hoshi was hardly noticed while she was busy biding her time. On the other hand, although it is a world of male chauvinism, and while both these Captain's women appear to be concubines or merely some eye-candy, in actual fact, they were more blood-thirsty and power-hungry than the Captains they served. Also T'Pol organised the rebellion in that Enterprise episode while Soval just stood around looking worried, so maybe you are right.

 

[Cli-Fi]

Oh yes later, but Marlena Moreau was quite demure (though she had no qualms exterminating people with that Tantalus field button) and Hoshi was hardly noticed while she was busy biding her time. On the other hand, although it is a world of male chauvinism, and while both these Captain's women appear to be concubines or merely some eye-candy, in actual fact, they were more blood-thirsty and power-hungry than the Captains they served. Also T'Pol organised the rebellion in that Enterprise episode while Soval just stood around looking worried, so maybe you are right.

Don't forget the Duras Sisters, 7 of 9 and Troi was not just a pretty face. She could hold her own.

 

[Cli-Fi]

What do you call the alternative mirror universe individual to distinguish them? We can't keep writing mirror universe Lorca. I suggest alt-Lorca, or if there are more, then cis-Lorca and trans-Lorca, or else Lorca¹, Lorca² and Lorca³???

That's if you stick with that theory. Remember Lorca could be from the Mirror Universe and who says we will meet Mirror Universe Lorca anyway? Hopefully, if we do, he's a nice push-over.

 

[Cathbad]

If Lorca is from the Mirror Universe, the Lorca we meet there will be from our universe!

 

[Alexa]

If Lorca is from the Mirror Universe, the Lorca we meet there will be from our universe!

I don't believe Lorca is from the Mirror Universe. He explained once the reason of his eyes problemes, I think to Michael when she was brought on Discovery. And honestly his situation right now is not very good in that glass box.

 

[Cathbad]

I don't believe Lorca is from the Mirror Universe. He explained once the reason of his eyes problemes, I think to Michael when she was brought on Discovery. And honestly his situation right now is not very good in that glass box.

Yeah, I don't think he's from there either - he jus wanted to prove the theory they could visit other universes.

 

[Dave]

I don't believe Lorca is from the Mirror Universe. He explained once the reason of his eyes problemes, I think to Michael when she was brought on Discovery. And honestly his situation right now is not very good in that glass box.

Yeah, I don't think he's from there either - he jus wanted to prove the theory they could visit other universes.

I'm not so sure. I can't believe prime Lorca would take them there just to see what it was like. He also wants to stay there, so his objective is not completed yet. In crossing over he has prevented our Starfleet from getting hold of the Klingon cloaking device, but he may be ensuring that their Starfleet get hold of it, and that is a good motive for a mirror Lorca.

On the other hand, your point about the Agonizer cubicles is a good one. If he was mirror Lorca then he must have known that he would be immediately put into one for punishment. Even if he thought that was a good way to keep up the subterfuge 1. Would you willingly subject yourself to that? 2. Whatever his plan is, he has no control over it while he is a prisoner, and how does he know Burnham won't work it out for herself?

There is an alternative double double bluff twist though. He is prime Lorca, but has done a deal with mirror Lorca to exchange the cloaking device for something much more useful - no idea what that might be.

@Alexa What was the explanation for the eye drops? I may try and re-watch that to see if he was lying. I have thought that Lorca was very odd from the start and had too many unexplained questions about his past. The gun under the pillow part still requires more explanation for me because he can't be unbalanced - Starfleet medical psych tests would have shown that - and so he must have a valid reason for being so paranoid.

 

[Dave]

A bit later perhaps but didn't they have a real nasty and powerful Kira Nerys

Kira Nerys was very powerful but after re-watching the DS9 mirror episodes, there was obviously a huge sexual revolution that took place in the mirror universe between Kirk's visit and that of Kira and Julian

 

[Dave]

This article makes a case that, if Lorca is the mirror Lorca, then the prime Lorca must have already have been killed at the Battle of the Binary stars:
'Star Trek: Discovery': Is Captain Lorca From the Mirror Universe?

Re: Lorca's eyes: I think he just said that the eye problem was a battle injury. This is probably not as much a lie as not the entire and whole truth.

And my own possible theory, going back to earlier questions we had that we might have now forgotten. Lorca showed an unusual interest in Burnham when he took her aboard Discovery and gave unprecedented access to a criminal and mutineer. This can now be explained much better if the mirror Burnham was also the protege of the mirror Philippa Georgiou, especially if the mirror Burnham had died. Lorca wishes to ingratiate himself with the Emperor by both giving her back her protege, and then offering her the prime Klingon cloaking device.

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

I see that Discovery has gone straight from awesome to Bury Your Gays.

 

[Cli-Fi]

This article makes a case that, if Lorca is the mirror Lorca, then the prime Lorca must have already have been killed at the Battle of the Binary stars:
'Star Trek: Discovery': Is Captain Lorca From the Mirror Universe?

Re: Lorca's eyes: I think he just said that the eye problem was a battle injury. This is probably not as much a lie as not the entire and whole truth.

And my own possible theory, going back to earlier questions we had that we might have now forgotten. Lorca showed an unusual interest in Burnham when he took her aboard Discovery and gave unprecedented access to a criminal and mutineer. This can now be explained much better if the mirror Burnham was also the protege of the mirror Philippa Georgiou, especially if the mirror Burnham had died. Lorca wishes to ingratiate himself with the Emperor by both giving her back her protege, and then offering her the prime Klingon cloaking device.

Good stuff @Dave I had not thought of the Georgiou plotline. I think Georgiou as Emperor is the thing that everyone expects and the Discovery people are hyping up Emperor reveal, as something unexpected, so I do not think it's her. Maybe that's because I want the Emperor to be someone cooler from Trek's past/future. Yes, the eye drops are not properly explained and perhaps, just perhaps it has something to do with the torture chamber? Maybe it has to do with pain from prolonged exposure to being in our universe? We don't know how long he was here. Maybe it blocks pain and Lorca will be immune to the torture device? If this is true, then, that will further prove Lorca is Mirror Lorca, because why else would he be immune to torture chambers that don't exist?

Also since they are most likely drugs, that could explain some of his paranoia. I think Lorca is a criminal mastermind hiding behind his captain's badge. Someone pointed out that Lorca seemed confused at first about the Mirror Universe, but that could all be a ruse, same thing when he is shown to have agony in the torture device (at least I think they showed that).

 

[Dave]

I see that Discovery has gone straight from awesome to Bury Your Gays.

...because they killed off the Doctor? They've killed off a lot of people so far, including Captain Georgiou. Not quite on a Game of Thrones scale, though @Vince W thinks so. I wasn't keeping a count, but doubt they were all gay. In any case, you can't both be correct.

...he is shown to have agony in the torture device (at least I think they showed that).

Yes, at the very end of the episode. The chambers were much similar to the TOS chambers than the Enterprise chambers; another piece of good continuity.

 

[Vince W]

...because they killed off the Doctor? They've killed off a lot of people so far, including Captain Georgiou. Not quite on a Game of Thrones scale, though @Vince W thinks so. I wasn't keeping a count, but doubt they were all gay. In any case, you can't both be correct.

Yes, at the very end of the episode. The chambers were much similar to the TOS chambers than the Enterprise chambers; another piece of good continuity.

It's not the quantity of deaths that makes it GoT-like, but the suddenness and shock that is pushing it into that territory. Not to mention it's becoming more graphic as well. There has always been death in Star Trek. On sheer scale there have probably been more deaths has in Star Trek than GoT (big, pitched space battles and the like).

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

They've killed off a lot of people so far

You're missing that Bury Your Gays is a very tired trope, and a blow to every single queer person who thought that Discovery might actually be different for once.

 

[Cli-Fi]

You're missing that Bury Your Gays is a very tired trope, and a blow to every single queer person who thought that Discovery might actually be different for once.

What? It's star trek. People don't stay dead on Star Trek.

 

[Abernovo]

I see that Discovery has gone straight from awesome to Bury Your Gays.

That annoyed the hell out of me. Yet again, the token Queer characters are tragic, and cannot be left to go on to the chance of surviving happily ever after, or at least HFN.

 

[Dave]

What? It's star trek. People don't stay dead on Star Trek.

Yes, I think they've missed the Death is Cheap trope...

...Spock, Kirk, McCoy, Benjamin Finney, Kodos the Executioner, Scotty, Data, Georgi LaForge,Tasha Yar, Ro Laren, Yareena, Wesley, Worf, Miles O'Brien, Jennifer Sisko, Janeway, Harry Kim, Neelix, Naomi Wildman, Archer