Star Trek - Discovery - 1.10: Despite Yourself

Amelia Faulkner said:
*Steeples fingers*

Okay. How's this for half-baked theory:

Paul exists outside the spacetime continuum. We've already seen that he can perceive multiple timelines. But what if, with the leftovers of Mudd's device and thanks to Hugh's death, he applies himself and learns to create them.

The timeline now taking place on the Shenzhou is post Paul's discovery of Hugh's body, and subsequent tinkering with time to fix it... But in the next episode we get to see what's actually going on on board Discovery.
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I did the same thing with my fingers reading this.

That would be timey wimey.
 
Dave said:
I just re-watched the episode. I don't often do that (I used to*) but there was a lot going on and I think I was in shock about Dr. Culber and missed lots.

Okay, so Lorca couldn't know about the USS Defiant visit to the MU unless he was MU. It hasn't happened yet in our prime universe.

Now that I know that, I can clearly see Lorca lying, a lot, but he could be telling the truth when he said that he and Stamets had considered jumping to other universes. So, Stamets is a possible MU too.

Burnham wanted to check out the spore drive jump logs, but Lorca put her off. He wouldn't need to do that is she was MU too. Also, you only need to look at her reaction to killing the Shenzou Captain in the turbolift to see she is not MU.

So, Burnham - not MU.

Lorca is MU.

Stamets - possibly, but in his condition, who can tell?

Dr. Culber is a definite no.

Tilly - not sure, but extremely unlikely.

Tyler - No, but then he isn't human either.

We really don't know enough about the rest of the crew to decide. The Bridge officers are just faces and voices.

Next, the Tyler thing:

Klingon medicine and science must have advanced a huge amount between Enterprise and Discovery and I'm not sure how.

Klingons don't have the battlefield medicine and surgery that has driven human medicine and surgery. They let their injured die. They certainly don't do reconstructive surgery. In the Enterprise "Augment" episodes the Klingons had no experience of genetics and gene therapy. The technology and medical techniques required to create "Tyler" are way beyond those humans have, so how can Klingons have them?

Something is clearly wrong with the process though, whatever it involved. Tyler was meant to "flip" during his encounter with L'Rell but he still only has subconscious knowledge.

The final thing that I missed is that there is an ISS Discovery that has taken the place of the USS Discovery in our prime universe. Now, that is something that records would record. I doubt that even "need to know basis" could cover up the effects of a Terran Empire ship let loose in our universe, so I look forward to how they resolve that.

*I used to be a card carrying member of the Star Trek nitpickers club. I apologise if this seems a little like that.
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I caught most of that and if true MU crew theory would surely go a long way to please me. To me at first none of the main characters screamed starfleet material. Discovery was always criticized for being too dark and too gritty and not focusing enough on the optimism of space travel. Them being MU would really help things with the fans who didn't like this direction. Remember we've only been on one planet and they broke the Prime Directive there to meet their own ends. Also if Lorca is MU, then he is breaking prime directive again by simply doing what he is doing
 
I have, since episode one, been operating under the theory that Discovery is not set in the same universe as the rest of Star Trek continuity, so when Lorca mentioned potential jumps to other universes it slotted neatly into that theory.

I think Discovery is going to be Voyager, but between universes and timelines rather than attempting to cross a single universe.
 
Dave said:
I think the whole point of the MU (at least in the TOS episode - not so sure in DS9*) is that no one is really good or evil but just a product of their environment and situation. I'm not sure that I agree with that; I'm just the messenger. The TOS episode, like many, was a morality tale, and it was meant to show how easily the good intentions of the Federation towards the Halkan Council could be weakened or even dispensed with. Kirk's smug pride about the Federation's good intentions being hugely over-emphasised to make this point strongly.

So, the MU Lorca was a rebel but supposedly is fundamentally the same person as the prime Lorca. You've heard that saying that one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

*DS9 made more of the differing personalities of the two Siskos and two Kiras. They were more than a little more violent and racist, to me they seemed uncaring, and even to enjoy inflicting pain. Again, that's only my take and I could be wrong.
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Wasn't DS9 also a symptom of their environment? Wasn't DS9 basically a bajoran concentration camp in the MU?
 
Cli-Fi said:
Wasn't DS9 also a symptom of their environment? Wasn't DS9 basically a bajoran concentration camp in the MU?
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It was still Terok Nor, the ore refining installation but operated by the Alliance rather than the Cardassians, and with humans as slaves rather than Bajorans. In that future, Spock's revolution had changed the Terran Empire and made it more democratic, but that had only served to weaken it, so that it was then conquered by the Alliance.

Amelia Faulkner said:
I think Discovery is going to be Voyager, but between universes and timelines rather than attempting to cross a single universe.
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So, you are describing a kind of Sliders in space? They do have a map (from the Spore Drive) so they presumably could travel around without getting lost (though they didn't get off to a good start.)
 
My prediction for the next quarter series after rewatch: Tyler will ‘kill’ the white Klingon and truly BECOME Tyler and provide valuable intelligence on the enemy. But he will let the Klingon prisoner escape...


Drops microphone...
 
I had to watch the episode again tonight. There was clearly a real Tyler, probably 7 months before Lorca was captured by the klingons. His memory flashed fast, but we can see Tyler's body and the klingon watching him on the operation table. The theory the doctor talked about just before his death, now makes more sense to me. Somehow, the klingon's personnality was inserted below his own. This could explain why his normal behaviour is so human. As long as he doesn't have to face any stress, the klingon's personnality is dormant. He is a human walking bomb.

Lorca said to Michel that he had alwayes hoped for a better version of himself in another dimension. I don't agree with the theory he was actually from the current universe. He is as rebel in this universe as he is in the real one.

I'm really curious what they will do in the next episode.:)
 
Dave said:
@Alexa What was the explanation for the eye drops? I may try and re-watch that to see if he was lying. I have thought that Lorca was very odd from the start and had too many unexplained questions about his past. The gun under the pillow part still requires more explanation for me because he can't be unbalanced - Starfleet medical psych tests would have shown that - and so he must have a valid reason for being so paranoid.
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Honestly, I do not remember the details. I may have to watch this episode again. He had some scars on his back and he did loose his crew once. He was the only survivor from the other spaceship, so we really don't know what he had to do and survive.
 
Ka*less Prayer was supposed to return is memory - te prisoner was surprised it did not. Tyler must be Klin*on!
 
Some notes from my rewatc*: 1) Captain's idea of findin a better version of *imself could be interpreted several ways. 2) I believe Paul is currently livin in multiple universes, so sees more t*an ot*ers. 3) I am not convinced te doctor is dead - a broken neck does not always equal dead. [apolo*ies for lack of two important letters.]
 
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