Star Trek - Discovery - 1.10: Despite Yourself

[Amelia Faulkner]

Having now watched the episode, I'll lay a fiver on Culber not being dead, and it being something that happened in Ash's head, because there was no follow-up phase on board the Discovery, and that would've been a better cliffhanger than Lorca in his cell.

 

[Narkalui]

Having now watched the episode, I'll lay a fiver on Culber not being dead, and it being something that happened in Ash's head, because there was no follow-up phase on board the Discovery, and that would've been a better cliffhanger than Lorca in his cell.

I can’t buy into that theory I’m afraid, it seems a little too close to ‘and it was all a dream.’ If he’s coming back then it’ll be Mirror Universe Dr

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

Well as there's a fiver on the line here...

 

[Cathbad]

Wow. I wonder if several M.U. people will be joinin our crew?

 

[Dave]

If, and this is all speculation anyhow, Lorca is MU, who is to say more of the crew are not already MU too. I never liked the way that Lorca acted, or his unexplained back-story. I didn't understand why he had got to such a position, war or not, considering the way he acted. It was inferred that he had changed following the Battle of the Binary Stars but no explanation was given. This MU explanation makes sense and I like that it does.

There is still one small problem with canon though. In the first of the DS9 visits, they make a great play about Kirk's visit by transporter being the visit everyone remembers. Following that Kirk visit Spock led a rebellion than changed the Terran Empire, but also transporters were fixed so that it could never happen again in that way (unless 100 years later you design a portable device that makes it as easy as going down to the shops.) Now, it isn't inconceivable that their were crossovers earlier than Kirk, but surely history would have remembered them? - certainly if it involved more than just Lorca, and certainly if there was crossover of technology. On the other hand, no one remembered the USS Defiant cross-over, but as I already said, Hoshi Sato and the Defiant must have been destroyed when attacking Earth or that doesn't work either.

 

[Cathbad]

Now, it isn't inconceivable that their were crossovers earlier than Kirk, but surely history would have remembered them?

Need to Know may be involved?

 

[Cli-Fi]

If, and this is all speculation anyhow, Lorca is MU, who is to say more of the crew are not already MU too.

My speculations exactly. My money would be on Burnham, Tyler, and possibly Stamets. The Discovery crew always felt...different

 

[Cli-Fi]

Having now watched the episode, I'll lay a fiver on Culber not being dead, and it being something that happened in Ash's head, because there was no follow-up phase on board the Discovery, and that would've been a better cliffhanger than Lorca in his cell.

The dream would be interesting but Tyler is pretty koo-koo. And in the promo for next episode you see

Spoiler

Stamets holding Culber and crying.

So I wouldn't bet on it being a dream.

 

[Cli-Fi]

Need to Know may be involved?

More like 50 years ago, the MU was a fun one off episode nobody ever thought would be a central plot in a Star Trek show in 2018!!!!!

 

[Cathbad]

Yes - and "Need to Know" can cover a multitude of plot holes!

 

[Dave]

I just re-watched the episode. I don't often do that (I used to*) but there was a lot going on and I think I was in shock about Dr. Culber and missed lots.

Okay, so Lorca couldn't know about the USS Defiant visit to the MU unless he was MU. It hasn't happened yet in our prime universe.

Now that I know that, I can clearly see Lorca lying, a lot, but he could be telling the truth when he said that he and Stamets had considered jumping to other universes. So, Stamets is a possible MU too.

Burnham wanted to check out the spore drive jump logs, but Lorca put her off. He wouldn't need to do that is she was MU too. Also, you only need to look at her reaction to killing the Shenzou Captain in the turbolift to see she is not MU.

So, Burnham - not MU.

Lorca is MU.

Stamets - possibly, but in his condition, who can tell?

Dr. Culber is a definite no.

Tilly - not sure, but extremely unlikely.

Tyler - No, but then he isn't human either.

We really don't know enough about the rest of the crew to decide. The Bridge officers are just faces and voices.

Next, the Tyler thing:

Klingon medicine and science must have advanced a huge amount between Enterprise and Discovery and I'm not sure how.

Klingons don't have the battlefield medicine and surgery that has driven human medicine and surgery. They let their injured die. They certainly don't do reconstructive surgery. In the Enterprise "Augment" episodes the Klingons had no experience of genetics and gene therapy. The technology and medical techniques required to create "Tyler" are way beyond those humans have, so how can Klingons have them?

Something is clearly wrong with the process though, whatever it involved. Tyler was meant to "flip" during his encounter with L'Rell but he still only has subconscious knowledge.

The final thing that I missed is that there is an ISS Discovery that has taken the place of the USS Discovery in our prime universe. Now, that is something that records would record. I doubt that even "need to know basis" could cover up the effects of a Terran Empire ship let loose in our universe, so I look forward to how they resolve that.

*I used to be a card carrying member of the Star Trek nitpickers club. I apologise if this seems a little like that.

 

[Narkalui]

There’s just one problem with that: Lorca could have known about the Defiant without being MU because they found out about it from the rebel data core.

Didn’t they?

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

And in the promo for next episode

Oh well seeing the future takes all the fun out of speculating!

 

[Dave]

There’s just one problem with that: Lorca could have known about the Defiant without being MU because they found out about it from the rebel data core.

Didn’t they?

Yes, the information was there in the data core files, but Burham had been looking through that and the way I saw it (possibly wrongly) Lorca was telling her about the Defiant, when she should be telling him. He could just have been briefing everyone on what she had found, but she seemed to be surprised, and shouldn't she be doing the briefing? However, there is so much lying going on, it is difficult to know the truth. I accept that he may have discovered something she had missed (a big something though, for someone so efficient.) It works better if he is MU.

 

[Narkalui]

I’m going to have to rewatch it, it seems there are quite a few small details that I missed

 

[Dave]

That's why I had to watch it again.

I may be wrong about Lorca being MU but he is keeping secrets, he is obstructing Stamets recovery and investigation of the spore drive jumps, and he is lying, often quite badly. Unless there is another reason for these things which they haven't explained yet, the MU explanation works best.

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

*Steeples fingers*

Okay. How's this for half-baked theory:

Paul exists outside the spacetime continuum. We've already seen that he can perceive multiple timelines. But what if, with the leftovers of Mudd's device and thanks to Hugh's death, he applies himself and learns to create them.

The timeline now taking place on the Shenzhou is post Paul's discovery of Hugh's body, and subsequent tinkering with time to fix it... But in the next episode we get to see what's actually going on on board Discovery.

 

[ctg]

I may be wrong about Lorca being MU but he is keeping secrets, he is obstructing Stamets recovery and investigation of the spore drive jumps, and he is lying, often quite badly. Unless there is another reason for these things which they haven't explained yet, the MU explanation works best.

If you say Lorca is from the Mirror Universe then he certainly cannot be the bad guy, as the Lorca from MU was rebellious and generally on good side from our perspective.

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

If you say Lorca is from the Mirror Universe then he certainly cannot be the bad guy, as the Lorca from MU was rebellious and generally on good side from our perspective.

All we really know is that he tried to kill the Emperor, but that's how people gain promotion in the MU anyway

 

[Dave]

I think the whole point of the MU (at least in the TOS episode - not so sure in DS9*) is that no one is really good or evil but just a product of their environment and situation. I'm not sure that I agree with that; I'm just the messenger. The TOS episode, like many, was a morality tale, and it was meant to show how easily the good intentions of the Federation towards the Halkan Council could be weakened or even dispensed with. Kirk's smug pride about the Federation's good intentions being hugely over-emphasised to make this point strongly.

So, the MU Lorca was a rebel but supposedly is fundamentally the same person as the prime Lorca. You've heard that saying that one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

*DS9 made more of the differing personalities of the two Siskos and two Kiras. They were more than a little more violent and racist, to me they seemed uncaring, and even to enjoy inflicting pain. Again, that's only my take and I could be wrong.