Knowing when to quit

I'm not going to point out the reviews because I don't want you all seeing how awful they are. I do have a pretty thick skin but if people are telling you over and over that something's wrong with you/your work you've got to start paying attention. Even Chrons members now have told me my characters are unlikable and/or abrasive. Wish people had told me at the beta-ing stage.

edit: yep HB he is supposed to be shallow but he's not meant to be unlikable.
 
I think it’s okay to be fed up and take a break. You don’t need to make a sweeping gesture - otherwise you’ll put yourself in a different box. If you don’t have anything flowing at the moment, so what. You have lots to be busy with. And then, if you get an idea later and want to write it, that’s okay too.
 
Ps I like your characters.

And if you’ve brought out a stinker, so what? Doesn’t mean you won’t bring out a cracker another time. My current is sinking like a stone (sales wise, reviews are okay) - but it doesn’t mean another won’t rocket :)
 
Remember what you say about my writing; remember what I say about yours.

Truth is you’re the worst, least qualified person to make judgments about your writing. All of us are. Just acknowledge this horrid period and accept it for what it is: the rough with the smooth.

pH
 
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HB he is supposed to be shallow but he's not meant to be unlikable.

I didn't find him unlikable. I found him amusing.

And what Jo (and others) said -- it's fine to take a break. There's this modern thing where if you're a writer you're supposed to be producing "content" 24/7. Sod that.

Wish people had told me at the beta-ing stage.

But your beta readers probably didn't think that, because we tend to attract betas who are in tune with what we write. And that's probably a good thing, as otherwise you'd be caught between opposing opinions.
 
SM is supposed to be fast-paced and amusing. It's not meant to be a deep look at human nature or anything like that, but the MC is still supposed to be likable, so I've done it wrong.

You should see one of the reviews for Whitecott Manor which is all sweary. I actually like that one cos it compares the book to a British soap opera. I mean, they're using that as an insult but Hollyoaks is awesome, so I can't see it as a bad thing.

I'm not meaning to make some grand sweeping statement and have everyone come and kiss my arse and say 'oh no, don't give up, you're amazing' blah blah cos I can't stand that sort of thing. I'm just thinking that if several people are saying my characters are crap - it's been for a few books - then therefore my characters must be crap so I should just stop because why would I keep putting myself through this? Would you guys? If you kept getting the same feedback, you would think 'yeah I must be bad at that so I should stop'.

If I stick to short stories then I'm still writing, but I don't have time to suck at anything!
 
Some almost random stuff for calibration:
I rapidly gave up on David Feintuch's The Still, because I found the main character to be a selfish, spoiled, unempathic little git - but you look at the reviews on Amazon.co.uk and other people mostly liked it. I wouldn't ever write a review trashing it, because it was just not to my taste (and because I didn't finish). I also admired his attempt to do something different, even if I didn't like it.
I've never read the Flashman novels by George McDonald Fraser - where the villain of Tom Brown's Schooldays is the main character because I just didn't fancy it - but I do know it did really well.
In fact, a lot of grim dark fantasy has relatively dubious or unlikeable characters and that is massively popular.
Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan - he is likeable to the reader (well, most readers), but when you look at his impact on the people around him and their reactions, he is very difficult to live with.
There was a ghost/romance/mystery I read a year or two back (can't immediately remember the title) that was fantasy lite - set in San Francisco, a historic house restoration business and they find a recently deceased body there and then there is ghost activity, the murder is solved and the MC meets again someone she used to date who is now a building inspector and the romance might be about to be rekindled in an alpha male-ish sort of way. I mostly enjoyed it (except the alpha male-ish bit which annoys me these days) and thought it a perfectly reasonable book. There was one review trashing it, really upset as they'd been sold it as a cosy mystery and there were all these silly ghosts in it.

Oh - and I personally out in real life occasionally accidentally provoke people into yelling at me that I am horribly negative and other rude things. So, I am someone who has worked a lot at bug finding in software and am a problem solver - but to solve a problem you have to first spot it. If someone comes to me going "what do you think of my plan" my first response would be to find what might make it fail and tell them about it so they can fix it and succeed. Most people appreciate this, a few think I am a flawed and horrible negative person - nice people only say nice encouraging positive things. Or in other words, there are a wide range of personalities out there and you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Today it sounds like you need to take a break of some kind - writing something else, not writing and doing critiques, whatever - hopefully tomorrow won't be such a black dog day.
And as Harebrain said - stuff targets. I see threads about reading targets. Wot? I read to relax not meet targets.

Wrote this before your latest post came up Mouse. Having spent the time on it posting anyway :)

Will add - is the genre you are writing in very rule bound and picky? I think someone already highlighted that further up. Your characters may be perfectly well developed characters who fit the story you wrote, but don't meet the expectations of people reading in that genre. Some people don't like to have their envelopes stretched.
 
Would you guys? If you kept getting the same feedback, you would think 'yeah I must be bad at that so I should stop'.

I'd try to nail down why some people thought that. Since you can't really ask random Goodreaders, for my next book I'd try to widen my pool of betas to people I had no reason to think would like my stuff, and if they didn't like the characters, I'd try to find out why and if there was anything I could do about it without destroying my idea for it.
 
Yes, romance readers are very picky and I've been told by my editors several times that the stuff I write is non-standard for romance. There's very specific rules for romance and I don't follow them. For example, no cheating. Even if the MC isn't actually in a relationship with the love interest, they can't kiss anyone else. There's a scene in SM that I was advised to delete where Mac has a moment with a lady alien. I didn't delete it. I just feel like I want these characters to have actual personalities, but my readers aren't liking these personalities so I either change it or quit.

And yeah, the target thing... I guess I do need to let that go but I hear over and over that you need to keep writing books (again, particularly in romance) to keep getting them out there to keep your readership up. I sort of know I need to quit romance but feel like if I do then there's no going back because the readers will have gone.

HB - that's a good idea. If I do write romance again I should probably get romance readers to beta.
 
Speaking as someone prone to black dog days, hating things they're not good at, and currently stuck in an office...

...

Ah, I can't get my thoughts in order. But:

a) Don't make hard decisions on black dog days
a) Everything has its detractors. That you've found them doesn't necessarily mean its crap. Maybe it means you just need to find your audience.
c) Or maybe you currently are a bit crap but can improve. The world is full of late bloomers, people who suddenly get over a hump and the rest of it. Or who write 7 books before coming on to be fantasy superstars.
d) Its quite unlikely you'd have got where you had if you were crap
e) Enjoying your writing is probably more important than your career in it

... that probably isn't helpful.

Take a longer holiday. Or, instead of a holiday, take a trip of self-exploration (short fiction and stuff). I might be wrong but I don't think this is the moment that forms the Darkest Moment at the Scene 2 break in the Hollywood blockbuster about how you became All the Initial James-Rowling because you didn't heed the doubters and went back and worked twice as hard.

And come back to writing novels when you want to.
 
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I'm just thinking that if several people are saying my characters are crap - it's been for a few books - then therefore my characters must be crap so I should just stop because why would I keep putting myself through this? Would you guys? If you kept getting the same feedback, you would think 'yeah I must be bad at that so I should stop'.

If I stick to short stories then I'm still writing, but I don't have time to suck at anything!

Sounds a bit like me TBH, all the questioning and self doubt. Yes. I did think that. The characters' flaw was the same in most of my longer works.
I AM bad at that.
But.

Bad at that - doesn't every writer have a weak point? I know I do. I didn't have an editor to gloss over and bounce edits back and forth with.
So I burned hours exploring WHY the feedback was the way it was. I experimented in one of my crit groups. I didn't stop writing. I improved my writing.



You've clearly considered if the reader expectation is part of the problem. So if it is, make a niche. Make your own sub-genre.
Like Jo.

The other option is to 'sell out' and tailor to demand.
Giving up is never an option! ;) (after about day four)
 
Walk away, take a break, do something else... and then come back to this. When the universe unloads on you from a great height, don't rush to making decisions.

When you do come back to this, try to look beyond/beneath the surface yuk. I was very lucky(?) a few years back, and got into a 'feedback' conversation about a rejection from an agent, pointing out that where I saw the 'no', there were positive and encouraging things to be seen. When the **** has hit your personal fan, that's almost impossible to do. You need time, and even then it's best with friends to go looking alongside you.
 
Don't make your own subgenre. You'll sell bugger all. :D ( I dread to think what Millymolly thinks mine is. Weird Norn Irish SFF, with a touch of sexy space pilot? Genres that don't sit on any shelf anywhere. I could open a poll.)

Anyhow, I'm with the bunny of wonder. I'd want to find out what it was they didn't like - IF I wanted to keep writing in that genre. If I didn't, I'd sod off and write whatever I did want to write. But one lot of bad reviews (I had a look, they're not that bad, and they're mostly from ARCs which are always hit and miss) does not a disaster make. And so what if people don't like a part of your writing? Go read Stephen KIng's bad reviews, or Gaiman's. You don't write to please others, but yourself. Or, if you're doing it the other way round, stop. You'll break your heart, otherwise.
 
Yes, romance readers are very picky and I've been told by my editors several times that the stuff I write is non-standard for romance. There's very specific rules for romance and I don't follow them. For example, no cheating. Even if the MC isn't actually in a relationship with the love interest, they can't kiss anyone else. There's a scene in SM that I was advised to delete where Mac has a moment with a lady alien. I didn't delete it. I just feel like I want these characters to have actual personalities, but my readers aren't liking these personalities so I either change it or quit.

And yeah, the target thing... I guess I do need to let that go but I hear over and over that you need to keep writing books (again, particularly in romance) to keep getting them out there to keep your readership up. I sort of know I need to quit romance but feel like if I do then there's no going back because the readers will have gone.

HB - that's a good idea. If I do write romance again I should probably get romance readers to beta.

I think any genre has rules that readers expect, for instance a murder mystery reader would expect to know the who dunnit at the end. Romance does have certain rules to follow, but some romance writers push the boundaries a little. And as I'm sure you know, there is now the Happy for now ending, not just the Happy ever after. I know about the can't have another love interest, but I would think it is possible to bring these scenes in, just bring them in before the MC has fallen head over heels, or when he doesn't really understand that he's yet in love, even though the reader is aware of it.

Fantasy/Sci fi romance is something that is rarely talked about on the Chrons, and at times I do feel a little on the outside of things. Maybe there should be more discussion about how to approach the complexities of romance writing in the fantasy sci fi genres.

If you love the genre, Mouse, keep at it, but give yourself a chance to gather your thoughts together first.
 
Well, Mouse, I know you can write because I've read some of your writing. :)

However, I think you know the problem yourself - you're just fighting to accept it:

There's very specific rules for romance and I don't follow them.
I sort of know I need to quit romance

Do I really need to add anything after your own words, give any pointers or advice? I'm tempted to, but I think you really know the answers you need. :)
 
@Amelia Faulkner - as a M/M Romantic fantasy writer, have you anything to add about the expectations of readers? It's just that I seem to recall you getting mixed reactions about characters, not least Quentin. Although I liked him, what really appealed about Jack of Thorns was the sensitive way in which you built up the characters' relationship, rather than going for outright romance and sex - but I'm not sure all readers would have been happy with that?
 
( I dread to think what Millymolly thinks mine is. Weird Norn Irish SFF, with a touch of sexy space pilot? Genres that don't sit on any shelf anywhere. I could open a poll.)
All of these things. Dudette, you're a business woman. Use it.
Fantasy/Sci fi romance is something that is rarely talked about on the Chrons, and at times I do feel a little on the outside of things.
But not for much longer. Science Fantasy is a growing thing, and the sub-genres are following along.

Not everything can be popular all of the time and at times publishing trends are cyclical. This applies to M/M romance as much as Suzanne and Jo's work. Has the genre "Had it's time" to the point that the expectation is the only thing that sells?

Mouse, follow your heart - as they say. You'll know when your ready to get back in the fray.
 
Coming a bit late to this so everyone's said what I'd have said if I'd been around when you first posted. But I'll say some of it again anyway.

First, there's a difference between writing well-imagined three-dimensional characters and writing characters readers like. There are a good many people in real life whom I can't stand, so anyone writing them accurately would hit a brick wall if I were the reader. It's not necessary to have characters people like, but it can make it harder to enjoy the novel if the MC is someone you personally find repellent, no matter how captivating you find the writing or plot -- it's a commitment to spend a few hours in someone's company even if that someone is fictional. I don't read romance but I can well imagine it's even more important there to have a character who is charismatic and who is someone the reader can imagine him/herself as or can fancy as a partner. So, it's a choice you have to make. Do you want to write characters who interest you, or do you want to write characters your readers will find good company? If the latter, then it may be you need to do some work, in which case ask your beta readers if they'd help you in isolating issues with the characters to see why they're not immediately likeable, and see what you could do to change that.

Second, I've no intention of blowing smoke up your fundament, but it's patently clear you can write since you've got published by real publishers. Leaving aside whatsername Shades of Grey James and Dan Brown, that doesn't happen to people who can't write. And your publishers' opinion of your writing is more important than what's going on at Goodreads. Have you spoken to them about the negative reviews?

As to whether you should quit, you're the only one who can answer that, but first perhaps ask yourself why you write. eg if it's because you enjoy creating characters and situations, then carry on but do it just for your own benefit and don't make any attempt to take it further or show it to anyone. If it's because you need validation from others in the form of good reviews and praise, well, that's dangerous territory in my book. In any event, if it's making you unhappy, for whatever reason, then stop (though check that the unhappiness really does come from the writing and isn't, say, a by-product of other things going on in your life). Life is too short to get distressed over something which should be enjoyable. Go make mosaics and paint and use those as outlets for your creativity instead.

In the meantime, while you're deciding what to do, stop reading the reviews.
 
Silly question perhaps, but can you not write Romance but instead write SF with romance in it? I'm thinking of Shards of Honour or something like that.
 

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