Knowing when to quit

[Mouse]

Thank you everyone for your comments and advice, you've given me a lot to ponder.

I spoke with some fellow NSP authors (a while back now) about the fact that my romances aren't very romance-y and they agreed that it's ok to just do spec fic with romance elements and I'm thinking that's what I need to do instead of saying my stuff is romance when I'm playing around quite a lot with that genre.

Regarding my character angst, the trouble I'm having is that I love writing characters like Mac. Characters who are a bit daft and full of themselves. I had a blast writing Space Mac, whereas I really found Whitecott Manor a slog (not least because WM is hugely about grief). If I don't write fun characters then I don't think I'll enjoy writing as much and if I don't enjoy writing then why do it? And then we're back to the people not liking the kind of characters that I like to write, although maybe they would be more forgiving of them in other genres. But... TBM (my trunked novel) had an MC with that similar sort of personality - it's not a romance - but I'm thinking that if, by some miracle, it did ever see the light of day, readers would be hating Ambrose for the same reasons.

Urgh. Conundrum.

I feel a bit better though - when I came home, I let Beau (the dog) out for a pee and when he came back in he did a little jump and poked me in the leg with his nose as if he was giving me a high five. He does that sometimes after coming in from having a pee, it's the cutest freaking thing.

Don't make your own subgenre. You'll sell bugger all.

Yep, TBM fits into the WTF category and I couldn't shift it despite getting good interest.

 

[Montero]

Adore Shards of Honour. Thought it a good moment to mention Ann Aguirre - Sirantha Jax series. Definitely a brooding, broken alpha male romance character in there (who it occurs to me is rather James Bond, having just watched the latest Bond movie). While I don't read pure alpha male romance, Sirntha Jax is a long way from the classic female romance character so I really enjoyed it. Have re-read it all in the last year too.
And how did I hear of Ann Aguirre - because of a thread here on SFF after all the SFWA sexism row. I specifically went to look at AA's books because of the trash talking, and then thought - fancy reading that - and galloped through the series buying one after another.

Info on sexism row.
Science fiction authors attack sexism amid row over SFWA magazine

And with WTF books - these days, when you've got a few neatly targeted books out, there is always the self-pub option and allow people to find it for themselves. Not necessarily a big or fast seller, but might be an optional extra for dedicated fans.

 

[The Big Peat]

So... you want to do Spec Fic Blackadder with lots of romance?

 

[Mad Alice]

Caveat: it's a black dog day and I just wanna go home and cuddle my literal black dog but I'm stuck in the office and blah...

I haven't written anything since I failed the NaNo in November. I have vaguely wanted to work on my first draft of L&C but I've not had any beta feedback and I need help now as my writing has got so bad (like, all of it - plot, characters, descriptions, everything) so I can't do anything there. I was thinking about resuming the novel I left off from the NaNo but I've had such bad feedback on everything lately that I think now it's time to quit.

So, I guess what I'm asking is, how do you know when it is actually just time to say 'ok, I'm no good at this and I'm not improving so I should chop off my fingers and write no more'? Rather than just keep on keeping on thinking 'I can get better.'

I don't need an ego stroking. I don't need people to tell me I'm good at such and such. I've had so much feedback lately from people saying everything's terrible to know that there's a problem.

I'm thinking my options are:
1. give up writing romance
2. give up writing novels and stick to shorts
3. work away on L&C then trunk it when it gets no interest but at least it'll be finished (much like TBM), then give up all writing
4. give up all writing, don't bother working on L&C

I can't do what I want to do because I don't know what I want to do, so I'm interested in others' thoughts. I don't think I want to do option 4.

Hold on there girl! Just because some overly pampered reviewers have gone full pirate on you and savaged you up a bit doesn't mean you abandon ship midvoyage. For one thing, I've noticed lately there seems to be a trending towards a great deal of ennui and sarcasm in reviews as of late. It's become stylish to be mean.
So I wouldn't be hanging up your typewriter just because some hipster had too much foam in his mochachinno and is taking his snit out on you.
Now I've seen plenty of books where both partners wander around the bed a bit. But each adventure is an important part of the plot.
And have you thought of tempering general unlikability with an endearing or redeeming aspect, either in the character themselves (for example, the bumbling newsman Ted Baxter in the Mary Tyler Moore Show redeems himself by his innocence and misguided (but meant as kind) gestures) or by use of a foil character? (Sort of like when a Hollywood star adopts a third world baby).
That they say somethings missing? Sounds as if more writings to be done, to my ears.
Just remember that they are really all pirates.

 

[Mouse]

I think the characters are likable and do have redeeming qualities though, so this is where I'm struggling as I could understand the hate if they were nasty characters. Like, Mac's full of himself but he's not mean or vindictive or anything like that - he saves several lives in the novel, even! It's like I need to water the character down, rather than round him up.

 

[tinkerdan]

I think you should probably back off a bit--preferably before removing appendages.
I also would echo the suggestion to not read the reviews.
You have 47 reviews and comments on goodreads and I would give my left arm for that many(even the bad reviews).
The only ones that would concern me would be the ones that say they didn't finish the book.

However; realistically I expect a few of those.

Don't change a thing--just sit back and take a few breaths and move forward.
Even the ones not reading are saying the writing is good.

Some of my favorite reads have forced me to have a reaction and not all of those have been favorable reactions. It's that reaction and how deep it cuts that helps define how well the story is crafted even if I hate all the characters.

It's when I want the story to end because of the writing; that's when I worry.

 

[sknox]

I'm with tinkerdan. I'd love to have that many reviews.

I understand if even a few reviews critique one specific area. But I believe you mentioned both beta readers and editors. If your work is making it over the triple jump (yourself, betas, editor), and fourth hurdle--the reviewers--is the only place those critiques appear, then I'd be looking at making changes somewhere in the first three.

You're thinking it's you, but I doubt that's the case. You're the same you that wrote the ones with good reviews. I'd be looking at the beta readers first, and maybe at the editor. If you have a good relationship with the latter, then you might bring this worry up with them, get their take on it. I saw someone else suggested making sure you get betas in the genre. I second that.

As for quitting writing altogether, yes! AFAIC, if a person can possibly give up writing, they should. It's brutal and wearying and fraught with emotional pitfalls, as per this thread. The only people who should write are those who can't help themselves, for whom the only thing worse than writing is the prospect of not writing. Yes, yes, I know some people claim they love it and it does nothing but make them happy. It is the surest proof there is that aliens live among us.

You're deep in the rough, mouse. You have my sympathy, hugs, encouragement, and anything else I can send your way. At least for me, nobody makes it better. The rough bits are like the flu. I just have to wait it out.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Um. Writing doesn’t have to be a misery, Mouse-let. Only our expectations make it so drill back, don’t write any more books you hate (my memo, too - sf for me from now on) and stop reading reviews, maybe

 

[EJDeBrun]

So reading everyone's comments and Mouse's too (Hi Mouse) I'm going to say:

Quitting is an option, but it doesn't have to be a permanent option.
Writing is an option, but it doesn't have to be now.
Taking break is always a good option.
Reading Reviews is not an option I recommend.

No one is going to tell you to just up and quit. (except for nasty review trolls who don't count in this conversation) I tried to get someone to give me the same opinion recently and met with equal lack of clear answer, which is frustrating when all you want is a yes or no answer. Unfortunately I think the real answer is that no one can decide that for anyone else and if they're smart enough, they won't try. (now I've just proven how useless I am in this conversation) All I can say is that life, like creativity, is a process and there are no guarantees about anything except death and taxes.

 

[Appello]

I think this is such an interesting discussion (sorry, Mouse, as I'm sure 'interesting' isn't the word you'd choose to use, and I don't mean to trivialise what you're going through). Why we write, where we find motivation and validation, how to deal with the conflict between reader demands and authorial independence, what we ultimately gain from the process... these are all complex and important questions, and for everyone the answers will be slightly different.

On a personal note, I haven't had the privilege of having a book published (yet, ho ho ho), so I can't comment on how it must feel to read negative feedback. But I do write fanfiction, and I've noticed myself the disproportionate impact negative reviews can have, even when they're heavily outnumbered. You can have thousands of positive reviews, even glowing; and yet when some random goes 'meh' it can somehow drown out all those other voices. Just one of the foibles of human nature, I guess, like how we always remember the person who's an arsehole but forget about all the good people we know. Reminds me of that Sunscreen song: "Remember compliments you receive. Forget the insults. If you succeed in doing this, tell me how."

Anyway, I think the point is, none of us are perfect. None of us can please everyone. So, if you're a writer and you're not plagued by self-doubt, you're either an android, or you're doing it wrong. So, the next question becomes: why do we put ourselves through it? And I think for everyone that answer will be different, but it's also so easy to lose sight of our genuine reasons in this world of marketing, profit margins, targets and production demands.

Fanfiction anecdote again, but: I remember once, I was having a really bad time, creatively. Hating my writing, hating my characters, sure that I could never write anything as interesting as other people, sure that the whole thing was just a giant waste of my time. Then I went home and opened my emails and saw a review that someone had left, telling me that my story was the only good thing they had in their life right then and that it had helped them through a horrible time. Hyperbole, I'm sure, but the point is this: writing is an incredible gift that allows you to touch the lives of someone you would never otherwise meet. And even if it's not a big, mind-blowing epiphany; even if you just provide someone with a few hours of relief from the tedium of reality, or make them laugh, or think, or give them a reason to find joy.... that is still an incredible achievement, and something to be proud of.

Try not to get hung up on a few negative reviews (I know, easier said than done). Instead, remember that someone, somewhere, has gotten joy out of something you've created. Someone's life has been made better because you have lived. And that, my friend, is the real magic.

 

[Abernovo]

@Mouse this has to be quick, as I have to get ready for work (takes time to make me presentable).

You're a good writer. I am in the process of reading L&C - had stuff going on, which got in the way, unfortunately - but can confirm your characters are not unlikable. Being idiots sometimes is a trait of being human.

I think Space Mac is in the wrong market. It's humorous sci-fi, with a romance.

Gah! Got to go. Will continue, probably email you. Step back for a breather, if you want, but your writing is good.

 

[Dan Jones]

Even Chrons members now have told me my characters are unlikable and/or abrasive.

Hi Mouse, I just got round to this thread.

I have a real bee in my bonnet about the supposed rule that fictional characters have to be likeable. If that were the case, whither things like Game of Thrones, The Wasp Factory, The Blade Itself, Lord of the Flies, The Shining etc etc? For all the readers that want to read a book with likeable, chummy characters, there will be others who want characters who are merely interesting company, regardless of their moral compass or good standing in the local community. To me, fiction is the very place where we can be with such people.

It may be that there is some incongruence between your chosen genre for something like Space Mac (which I've not read, BTW) - ie romance, and your lead character being something of a shallow, vacuous ponce? It's often said that romance is the most obvious wish-fulfilment genre (caveat: anything can be wish-fulfilment, but the mechanics of romance (character A loves Character B and either gets him/her or doesn't) lends itself to that fantasy more easily), so readers may want something that is more easily identifiable with themselves. Or, at least doesn't reflect the less wholesome sides of their own personalities so much. After all, we all have our shallow sides, especially when it comes to sex, right? Right?

Having said that, aren't the characters from Fifty Shades and Twillight supposed to be vacuous ponces as well? And look what happened to them!

Of course, Jo may be right, you might have dropped a clanger. So what? So has Salman Rushdie. None of this seems to me to add up to conclusive evidence to quit writing for good.

 

[Luiglin]

I'm going through something similar @Mouse but the doubt is of my own doing. I'm unfortunate, or possibly fortunate, not to have had any reviews. As such, at present I'm not sure how'd I'd cope with negative ones.

So I've gone back to basics. I'm writing for my own enjoyment. If that coincides with someone else liking it then great. If not, don't worry, you'll never please everyone. For each person that likes Stephen King there's another who hates him and prefers Barbara Cartland ad infinitum.

Stick pen to paper or finger to keyboard and smile

 

[Toby Frost]

I remember my dad reading one of my earliest bad reviews, thinking about it and saying “Yep… he didn’t get it”. There always are people who don’t “get” a book, especially where the book is trying to elicit a gut response such as amusement or whatever the exact word is from what you’re meant to get from Romance. (For what it’s worth, my two favourite bad reviews are “Unreadable and dire” and “No Englishman would refer to his trousers like this”).

I also think that, at the end of the day, to write as best as you can, you do have to write for yourself. You can do that with a strong awareness of genre and other restrictions, and it isn’t an act of betrayal to know your market, but ultimately every good book you write is in some way about yourself. In the two stories I’m trying to write now, there are at least two characters who are there because I want to talk about people like them, however seriously I choose to do so. That’s not a decision based on what sells: it’s my decision, and I believe that doing so will make the book stronger.

It may be that the people leaving these bad reviews wanted something else, or a book that played to a particular set of rules. I can’t say whether or not that was a fair thing to think (but I suspect it wasn’t), but if the rules are that arbitrary, it doesn’t sound as if it’s much to do with good or bad writing. Anyway, if nothing else, this thread is the first time I’ve ever actively wanted to read a gay romance. (It's also where I learned the phrase "to go full pirate" and got the mental image of Salman Rushdie fighting one of Oliver Postgate's Clangers, but I digress.)

 

[Biskit]

(It's also where I learned the phrase "to go full pirate" and got the mental image of Salman Rushdie fighting one of Oliver Postgate's Clangers, but I digress.)

I was fine until I read that. Now I have to go and shift hay bales until my head is straight again.

 

[Dan Jones]

“No Englishman would refer to his trousers like this”

That is tremendous. I'd sell my own pants for a review like that.

(It's also where I learned the phrase "to go full pirate" and got the mental image of Salman Rushdie fighting one of Oliver Postgate's Clangers, but I digress.)

The Clangers are quite big around here in the Space Agency; we're encouraged to take them out to conferences and events. You probably think I'm making that up...

On a less frivolous point...

I remember my dad reading one of my earliest bad reviews, thinking about it and saying “Yep… he didn’t get it”. There always are people who don’t “get” a book,

I don't subscribe to the view that a book should be didactic in the response it's trying to ellicit, or that someone didn't necessarily "get" it. I go by what Bob Dylan said when some hippy interviewer asked him, "but Bob, what do your songs actually mean?" and he said, "They mean whatever they mean to whoever's listening to them at the time." As authors, we have the power to describe in intimate detail some very specific and niche circumstances (Salman Rushdie fighting the Clangers, for example, or a sex worker pricking his finger on a interdimensional brooch whilst On The Job) and reflect feelings that are universal. People will relate to what's in books and songs and art in their own way by using their own experience. It doesn't help the cliche of the poncy author to go around castigating people for not "getting" one's work.

 

[nixie]

Speaking as a reader, I rarely read reviews nowadays they aren't helpful, focusing on something they percieve as bad and blowing it out of proportion, ignoring the fact that the book was worth finishing.
Unlikable characters, well the majority of books I read would be tossed aside if I had to like the characters.

 

[The Big Peat]

Few more off the cuff thoughts...

The point about everyone dropping a clanger at some point is pretty good. So too is the point that its not defining.

The point about there maybe being a group of Romance readers who expect characters to become nicer by the end (the redemptive power of love!) and quibble if there isn't also might have wheels.

The point about every author having a weak point is a good one too. I feel fairly safe saying your characters are, at least, more interesting than Tom Clancy's... and I feel even safer saying the combined sales of all authors here will never touch his. I know from previous posts you may be thinking "But my characters were what I'm good at!" but I fail to believe that's your only strength as an author.

 

[janeoreilly]

Publishing is a horrible business and it will suck the creative life out of you every chance it gets. I guess the question really is whether this is about publishing or about writing, because you can take a break from one without taking a break from the other. If it's writing, there is nothing wrong with taking some time out to refill the well. If it's publishing, it's not going anywhere. The romance genre is so swamped with new material at the moment that it's become almost impossible for anyone to make a dent in it. TBH everyone I know who is writing romance is struggling right now, even friends who write for mills and boon are seeing their incomes fall. That's not to say that other areas of publishing aren't equally as tough, but the romance market is at saturation point and taking a step back from it for a while might be a good thing.
The other thing I would say is don't read reviews. They are bad for your health.

 

[Juliana]

Mouse, you have tons of good advice here, so all I'll say is that when I read an early version of SM I really enjoyed it, but I was coming at it from a SF/F reader/writer perspective, and not a romance perspective. I think that (as has been said in this thread) if you want to continue in romance, then maybe you need romance-specific betas.

BUT I agree with Aber:

I think Space Mac is in the wrong market. It's humorous sci-fi, with a romance.

And I think you might try moving out of the romance niche you've fallen into, perhaps.