Knowing when to quit

[Montero]

Wombling back across based on no new data whatsover - do check what your publisher thinks, what your sales are etc - if you are writing books that enough people like and buy, it could be worth continuing where you are. Equally you could alternate - start up a humorous sf romance series/collection - and alternate that with your existing romance. I'll leave you with that cliche of "don't throw the baby out with the bath water." Incidentally, I really struggled with that metaphor as a kid, who'd only seen indoor baths, wondering how a baby would fit down a plug hole.

In terms of relaunching an existing book in a new area, this is quite interesting.
Changing Titles: My Experience and How You Can Too

 

[sknox]

>a baby would fit down a plug hole.

Oh your baby has gone down the plughole
Your baby has gone down the plug
The poor little thing was so skinny and thin
He should have been washed in a jug

A Mother's Lament. Quite an old song, but many of us first heard it off the Disraeli Gears album. If you don't know that album, I'm afraid we cannot be friends, mate.

 

[Montero]

Disraeli Gears??
Looked it up and it was by Cream. First time I heard of them.
So what is your position on Abba?

 

[AlexH]

So erm...back on topic! How many words did you write for NaNo? I'm guessing it was more than you would have written otherwise? NOT a failure, if that's the case.

And not quitting is what makes people a success. Those who don't know when to give up, try harder when they fail, are the ones that make it.

 

[Dan Jones]

And not quitting is what makes people a success

Yeah, this. It's a well worn cliche but you gotta have a few failures under your belt in order to find those successes.

I remember when Harebrain (and others) came back to me telling me my fantasy epic I'd spent four years on had fundamental problems, and I ditched it. But I learned an enormous amount from it.

Again, I refuse to believe that the evidence presented amounts to a good case for quitting altogether rather than applying what you've learned to something new.

You don't accumulate your sort of portfolio without some sort of capability. You gots to believe in yo' self, girl!

ETA: you think you have problems, I just bought a pint of Kronenbourg for €9.90.

One pint. For €9 90.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

*salutes the fallen*

 

[Cat's Cradle]

Mouse, am I correct that you've co-authored a book with another person? I hope you won't quit, because I think you're quite talented, but I wonder if there might not be some comfort in the near future in trying to write again, with somebody else? With two working on a book, there must be mutual support, during the writing process. And with two people, if you suspect you have any weakness (or just some aspect of your writing that isn't hitting on all cylinders, at the moment), perhaps where the issue lies might become self-evident, when you and your co-author review each other's chapters.

Not sure if that all makes sense, so I'll just say hang in there, CC

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

Sorry @Brian G Turner, for some reason I didn't get notified about the tag!

@Mouse, if you'd like I can go over your latest and give you a blow by blow of where you're going wrong, but I guarantee the problem is not bad writing. Brian's right: I have some real Marmite characters, and if you go Marmite that automatically means that you're going to get a split between readers who love or hate it. NSP know what they're doing when they give you advice, so my advice would be to listen to your editor. They know the audience will roast you alive if you have even the faintest whiff of cheating, and you left it in anyway. It's okay to do that so long as you realise that your sales and reviews are absolutely going to suffer as a result <3

 

[Mouse]

Lots of comments again, thank you everyone for pondering this with me! I found this quote from Charles Darwin today that is me (and this thread) pretty much spot on. I think some of you will relate too.

"I am very poorly today & very stupid & hate everybody & everything. One lives only to make blunders. I am going to write a little Book for Murray on orchids & today I hate them worse than everything so farewell & in a sweet frame of mind, I am Ever yours" —Charles Darwin, 1861

I think there's been some specific questions... I got to about 30k in the NaNo and yep, that's more than I'd usually write. Yep, I co-authored a novel with allmywires and that was picked up and published but the publisher went out of business... again my character in that was unlikable (but he was a spoilt, rich boy who murdered someone because he didn't get what he wanted so I know not everybody would like him!) No, I know not to read reviews, annoyingly I don't usually as I'm not (often) bothered! But my giveaways had just ended and I needed to log in to get the addresses of the winners. No, I had no idea I had that many reviews, I thought I was on about eighteen. Yes, I think I mis-genred SM and, as other NSP authors have also advised me, will make sure I don't refer to it as a romance. I don't think it's a clanger and I don't think the MC is unlikable - my problem is that readers do find him (and other characters of mine) unlikable so I think now that no matter how much I enjoy writing those types of characters I need to stop.

Amelia, I don't think there's any point going over something that's already published, but if I do write another romance I would love for you to likability check my characters for me! I don't think I will do another romance (actually, 99% sure I won't) but I might continue with the one I left of for the NaNo which is a sort of superhero novel with a romance subplot which I will make sure to definitely not pigeonhole as romance if I do offer it up to the publishing gods. So if I could nab you for that one...

Aber - I am in the process of reading L&C - had stuff going on, which got in the way, unfortunately - but can confirm your characters are not unlikable. Except for Max, right?

So, this is what I think I'm gonna do... quit writing romance novels and just keep the romances as subplots. Stick to short stories for the moment and work on L&C after receiving beta feedback. Does that seem like the most sane thing to do?

 

[Brian G Turner]

quit writing romance novels and just keep the romances as subplots

I think us science fiction and fantasy readers are easier to please, and will be far more tolerant of a romance subplot that breaks the rules.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Hi toots,

Is it possible that your characters are not nice because you’re not a nice person? Just throwing that out there...

But seriously, glad you’ve shaken the doubt a little and I suspect you’d guess what we’d all say. I’d be quite glad for you to have romantic elements in your demon stories and stop trying to sell romance. I’m
Not into romance but Merc’s storyline really made TBM. I think there’s plenty scope for you to do both without the genre label.

Also, if you insist on writing love stuff I’m going to have to start calling you Miss Bangs LaRue.

pH

 

[Mouse]

Is it possible that your characters are not nice because you’re not a nice person? Just throwing that out there...

You're an asshat.

But seriously, glad you’ve shaken the doubt a little and I suspect you’d guess what we’d all say. I’d be quite glad for you to have romantic elements in your demon stories and stop trying to sell romance. I’m
Not into romance but Merc’s storyline really made TBM. I think there’s plenty scope for you to do both without the genre label.

Also, if you insist on writing love stuff I’m going to have to start calling you Miss Bangs LaRue.

pH

I need to write more Mercs and less (fewer?!) Ambroses.

<3 Miss Bangs LaRue x

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

So if I could nab you for that one...

You'd be more than welcome <3

 

[Montero]

Love your Darwin quote, Mouse. So know days like that. Especially at the end of a long week.

BTW everyone, not following this whole <3 stuff. Translation please?

Mostly agree with @Brian G Turner about the tolerance of sf and fantasy readers, with the caveat that some military sf lovers seem to be more demanding of rules to be obeyed. Have seen complaints about Miles Vorkosigan not being believable as a military person (well in his soul he is natural special ops and mainstream military don't always like special ops) and also Tanya Huff's excellent confederation marine series not being true military sf. (I think some of that is some people thinking military sf has to be naval battles and long tech descriptions of weapons and battle tactics.)

@Mouse Fewer is technically correct, but it is blurring these days as language mutates. I was firmly raised on fewer potatoes, less flour to give the distinction.

 

[Juliana]

Love the Darwin quote, Mouse, and I think you have a solid game plan to start with.

BTW everyone, not following this whole <3 stuff. Translation please?

It's a heart.
And can I also vote for Miss Bangs LaRue?

 

[Mouse]

Yep a heart. But if you do this: <3~ It looks like a mouse.

 

[Juliana]

Sideways mouse:

<"]~

 

[J Riff]

Campervan! Escape! That's my plan. Could probably get some writing done then, parked somewhere, with a little fridge in there... and a cot and a satellite dish, a nice streo system, hotplate, maybe a dog.... ahhhhhhh. *)

 

[TitaniumTi]

Could the bad reviews simply reflect a blurb and cover art that don’t accurately represent the book within the covers? I haven’t read either Whitecott Manor or Space Mac but the covers and blurb don’t seem to match what this thread says about them. I hated Me Before You by Jojo Moyes not because it’s a bad novel (it probably isn’t), but because the cover art and blurb of the edition I read led me to expect light chick-lit, and I wasn’t in the mood for anything more somber. Incidentally, Me Before You is a break-through novel with unlikeable protagonists.

Jodi Taylor’s (St Mary’s series) protagonist Max, although entertaining, is not particularly likeable, and that series has become very popular.

Susan Elizabeth Phillips seems to specialise in writing unlikeable protagonists but, judging by her reviews, she has a strong following.

 

[Montero]

On <3 I was trying for a mathematical interpretation and well puzzled. Thanks folks.

@TitaniumTi - that's a very good point on the covers.
I've read all of St Mary's - in fact galloped through them once I'd learnt of their existence (which was well into the series). I am certainly entertained by Max, thought about whether she is likeable and decided that on the whole I like her. Not the easiest person to be around (another one like Miles Vorkosigan) but I like mouthy, independent folks, I like eccentric researchers, so all fine by me. Now wondering how everyone defines likeable.
In fact nearly all the characters in St Mary's the academic college itself strike me as plausible academics/re-enactors of the determined, energetic, obsessive kind who don't even consider what the rest of the world thinks of them.

The St Mary's covers changed part way through the series, but they've retained a theme of darkish colours, historical scene and something indicating time. No individual portraits at all.
Trying to remember how soon the romance side of the series starts - as in Max's relationship. Once it is underway, there are energetic sex scenes including one on the bonnet of the boss's Bentley. (Not with the boss). As far as I can remember, not a super-detailed scene, but definitely not fade out as they start to kiss. But there is no hint of that on the covers. It is much more a relationship than a classic romance and extends through the series in a sometimes stormy way.
Some of the covers are here:
https://www.accentpress.co.uk/the-chronicles-of-st-marys-series
I was under the impression that Accent Press liked some romance in all their stories, but they don't currently have submission guidelines up, so can't say that for sure. (For calibration). They have Jodi Taylor marketed as historical fiction and humour even though it centred on an institute that investigates historical events by travelling there in a time machine. They have one book categorised as science fiction and none as fantasy. So there you go, I'd have put St Mary's into genre, they don't.