Game of Thrones: 8.05 - The Bells

[L.L.Lotte]

I think that article is a joke, isnt it? The one Jo linked i mean. The way it's written, it must be.

Edit: yeah, The Beaverton is satire. Fake news.

 

[Dave]

Sorry, that makes sense then if that wasn't an actual quote from them. It was in "quotes" though. I'm sick of fake news. Even more than fans complaining.

 

[L.L.Lotte]

Sorry, that makes sense then if that wasn't an actual quote from them. It was in "quotes" though. I'm sick of fake news. Even more than fans complaining.

In this case it was not intended to mislead but as comedy.

 

[Ursa major]

And having one of the most dedicated and vocal fanbases in recent history - maybe the most, maybe ever - probably has a lot to do with how a large majority of the viewers got there.

I have never been attracted, or otherwise, to a work by the existence, or the views, of its fanbase. A fanbase is, by definition, composed of outliers: most people, however much they like a work, are not fans of that work in the way the members of its fanbase are. Because of that, the views of the fanbase are not a reliable guide to the quality of the work in question.

Game of Thrones exists because the source material was a series of best selling books that people close to the producers liked enough to get the producers interested, an interest that increased when they read the books and saw the possibilites in transferring it to the small screen. The show was not made because of the books' fanbase... and the show was allowed to get to its final season not because there were dedicated fans but because the viewing figures (composed mostly of non-members of the fanbase) kept growing.

 

[L.L.Lotte]

Game of Thrones writers petition fans to write their own goddamn show, if they’re so smart

HOLLYWOOD – After a petition demanding that the writers of Game of Thrones rewrite the final season received over half a million signatures this week, David Benioff and D. B. Weiss fired back with a rebuttal petition inviting fans to create their own hit series, if they think they’re so much...

www.thebeaverton.com

‘Game Of Thrones’ Showrunners Disappointed With How Quality Of Fans Has Dropped Off Over Past Couple Seasons

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think that article is a joke, isnt it? The one Jo linked i mean. The way it's written, it must be.

Edit: yeah, The Beaverton is satire. Fake news.

Oh yeah, sorry, I thought that was clear in the piece. I should have said. My bad

 

[Al Jackson]

they're a bit butthurt if this is true. I guess it's only natural, as people are saying they themselves can't write an epic of this proportion without source material. Which in a way they are admitting by citing a lack of source material.

There is one difference this time, serious TV critics , who like the show, have leveled good arguments , well put, at the writing for season 8, so it's not just the fans.
I like Myles McNutt's essays about the show:

Game Of Thrones brutally asserts that the game in question will have no winner (experts)

Welcome to the “Experts” reviews of Game Of Thrones here at The A.V. Club, which are written from the perspective of someone who has read George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire. Originally, these reviews were a necessity, creating a space where those who had read the books could...

tv.avclub.com

 

[The Big Peat]

I have never been attracted, or otherwise, to a work by the existence, or the views, of its fanbase. A fanbase is, by definition, composed of outliers: most people, however much they like a work, are not fans of that work in the way the members of its fanbase are. Because of that, the views of the fanbase are not a reliable guide to the quality of the work in question.

Game of Thrones exists because the source material was a series of best selling books that people close to the producers liked enough to get the producers interested, an interest that increased when they read the books and saw the possibilites in transferring it to the small screen. The show was not made because of the books' fanbase... and the show was allowed to get to its final season not because there were dedicated fans but because the viewing figures (composed mostly of non-members of the fanbase) kept growing.

Accepting your spectacularly narrow and probably wrong definition of fanbase for the sake of argument, how do you SoIaF became a series of best selling books to begin with? They weren't bestsellers out of the gate after all despite GRRM having been in the game for a decade building his career. The answer to that lies in no small part in word of mouth recommendations and advocacy.

And who do you think were the loudest recommenders and advocates? Hardcore fans and booksellers/reviewers. And there's more of the former.

There is no way of guessing what percentage of GoT/SoIaF's audience were brought in by recommendations by the fanbase, or by the recommendations of people brought in by the fanbase. Even allowing for the narrowest possible interpretation, its probably considerable. Going by a normal definition of fanbase i.e. just anyone who'd call themselves a fan/has an active interest in the creator's work, its probably gigantic.

A few lucky books get to be marketing phenomenons from the get-go. Everything else is building up through word of mouth (and occasional relentless touting from the author). And fans are by percentage a necessary part of that machine, and your views are immaterial to that fact.

 

[Dave]

I think we are now straying quite far from a discussion on the narrative of this particular episode, but just to answer this from my own very narrow anecdotal perspective, I had never heard of GRRM or any of his books until I found out about them here on this forum. I think members here were some of the greatest advocates of the books. However, readers of the books are a small subset (even all those here) of the very much larger wider audience that has been gathered by the TV series. It is a phenomenally successful TV series way beyond the popularity of the books. It might be true that some people watched the TV series, and then read the books, but the number would be very small. My own sister and brother-in-law are examples of people who never read Fantasy, have never read GRRM before, but who love this series, are avid watchers, and have bought all the box-sets. These arguments about the final series are naturally limited to that subset who read the books first and are then disappointed with the TV series, so in proportion, very much smaller than those who watch the TV series only.

Edit: Just to add, it is common and probably natural for readers of a book to disike elements of the TV or film adaptation. GoT is different and quite unusual because of the continuing lack of the final book and nothing to compare with.

 

[svalbard]

Still a great episode

 

[Venusian Broon]

It is a phenomenally successful TV series way beyond the popularity of the books. It might be true that some people watched the TV series, and then read the books, but the number would be very small.

Sorry, how on earth can you make that assertion.

Yes, I was one that heard the buzz coming from the TV show first, watched a few, then I decided to read the books that were available. I don't remember anyone actively pitching these books to me from here or anywhere else as books to read. Of course, one could not help but see the posts being made, but I largely ignored them at the time.

However for more concrete evidence, this article Sales of A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE overtake THE WHEEL OF TIME and DISCWORLD states:

That up to the start of TV series in 2011 12 million copies of the books had been sold, but moving on, overall sales of the books hit 70 million in August 2016. (This makes me feel old, I also joined Chrons in 2011 )

So honestly, I would say that it was likely to be that a lot of people had watched/heard about the TV series then read the books.

 

[REBerg]

It might be true that some people watched the TV series, and then read the books, but the number would be very small

I plan to add to that number after this Sunday.
I've had the books for quite some time, but I did not want to read them until the series had ended. I've long felt that books and the movies or television shows based on them do not play nice together.
Those who read the books first are annoyed when the visual version makes dramatic departures from the written version, or when the books follow the film or show so precisely that they serve as spoilers. In some cases, I imagine, the exceptionally cranky are annoyed for both reasons.

 

[Venusian Broon]

I plan to add to that number after this Sunday.
I've had the books for quite some time, but I did not want to read them until the series had ended. I've long felt that books and the movies or television shows based on them do not play nice together.
Those who read the books first are annoyed when the visual version makes dramatic departures from the written version, or when the books follow the film or show so precisely that they serve as spoilers. In some cases, I imagine, the exceptionally cranky are annoyed for both reasons.

I think the consensus is that they did a good job for the series that had the published books as material and were generally quite faithful. They did cut out a fair bit too, but no one moaned too loudly, as people realised that the books needed to be streamlined to be made into a TV series - a bit like what Peter Jackson did to LotR.

 

[Dave]

Sorry, how on earth can you make that assertion.

I did say it was only from my own anecdotal evidence, and not from any statistical analysis, but from the fact that according to HBO, 17.4 million people watched the Season 8 premiere; 23 million Americans after cable sales are included. I don't have to hand the figures for the entire world but they must be twice that??

I'll have to grant you that if book sales jumped to 70 million after the TV series started then a large number of them had watched the TV show first. Even given that some may have bought and not read the book, or that some won't have read every book, that is still a very large number and I hadn't realised that they were so high, sorry.

Despite that, I still hold that the number complaining about the adaption of book to TV is a very small proportion of those watching because you need to have knowledge of both. Complaining because you just don't like what you saw is not the same thing. 70 million people are not complaining.

 

[The Big Peat]

These arguments about the final series are naturally limited to that subset who read the books first and are then disappointed with the TV series, so in proportion, very much smaller than those who watch the TV series only.

Every critique I've seen of this season has rested squarely on its differences to the first season of the show and the actions portrayed in the show; I don't think anyone's referenced the book. And I can't recall hearing any criticism about the early seasons from book fans, even when I was hanging out on the westeros forum. I'm sure there was some, but its nothing like the criticism we're seeing now.

As such I'm very dubious that this is about the people who read the books first. The difference between the early seasons and the books is far less pronounced than the difference between the early seasons and season 8.

 

[Al Jackson]

I plan to add to that number after this Sunday.
I've had the books for quite some time, but I did not want to read them until the series had ended. I've long felt that books and the movies or television shows based on them do not play nice together.
Those who read the books first are annoyed when the visual version makes dramatic departures from the written version, or when the books follow the film or show so precisely that they serve as spoilers. In some cases, I imagine, the exceptionally cranky are annoyed for both reasons.

GRRM is a very good writer. I have read all the novels , books 1-3 are dynamite, 4 and 5 are very good but do contains some chapters that are tap dancing. Funny thing about George , even the tap dancing reads well, he is a natural born story teller and can engage you with a yarn.

I have seen fan criticism that the TV series started to go down in season 5 when they ran out of material, I did not find that true at all , season 5 had Hardhome and season 6 had Battle of the Bastards.
Only miscue I felt was the shows story of Arya in Braavos which was much richer in book 5 and even the excerpt we got from GRRM is better than it's treatment on the show.

Seasons 7 and now 8 have an air of expediency about them that was not the fare in season 5 and 6.
As I have said before 8 is showing seams that didn't used to happen.

 

[Ursa major]

I had never heard of GRRM or any of his books until I found out about them here on this forum.

It's the same for me.

 

[svalbard]

I must be in the minority here because for some strange reason I am finding Season 8 the best so far. Like everything else it has it's faults but on the balance it is great. The screaming hordes are mad at the story arc of Dany yet it was always there. If I had the patience I reckon I could go back and find some posts in previous seasons where I and others pointed this out.

One more episode to go and then let the games begin.

 

[Ursa major]

your spectacularly narrow and probably wrong definition of fanbase

Sorry, but you no more get to make a definitive statement of what a fanbase is and isn't than I or anyone else does (and so you can keep your "spectacularly narrow" and "wrong" to yourself, thank you very much). You can of course have your own understanding of what it is...

...and it would be helpful, given your arguments are based upon your own understanding, if you could say what it is. That way we could at least measure what you claim a fanbase can and cannot achieve (and can and cannot be responsible for) against that definition.


Oh, and if your understanding of the meanining of fanbase includes me as a member, it's far, far too broad.

 

[The Big Peat]

Sorry, but you no more get to make a definitive statement of what a fanbase is and isn't than I or anyone else does (and so you can keep your "spectacularly narrow" and "wrong" to yourself, thank you very much). You can of course have your own understanding of what it is...

...and it would be helpful, given your arguments are based upon your own understanding, if you could say what it is. That way we could at least measure what you claim a fanbase can and cannot achieve (and can and cannot be responsible for) against that definition.


Oh, and if your understanding of the meanining of fanbase includes me as a member, it's far, far too broad.

Dictionary editors get to make definitive statements; their example sentences indicate it is commonly held to be talking about very broad groups of people (in the millions). One accepts that there is a certain amount of wriggle room there but even so, your definition of who's included and not included in a fanbase is very much at the lowest possible end they're talking about, so I'll stick with "spectacularly narrow and probably wrong".