Game of Thrones: 8.05 - The Bells

[Venusian Broon]

GRRM is a very good writer. I have read all the novels , books 1-3 are dynamite, 4 and 5 are very good but do contains some chapters that are tap dancing. Funny thing about George , even the tap dancing reads well, he is a natural born story teller and can engage you with a yarn.

Agree with you more or less completely (I thought 2 was a tad strung out, but I was amply rewarded by book 3, it was a fantastic ending. I was breathless! ) Yes his writing is excellent and is a huge motivator to read, even in following his more meandering parts.

I have seen fan criticism that the TV series started to go down in season 5 when they ran out of material, I did not find that true at all , season 5 had Hardhome and season 6 had Battle of the Bastards.
Only miscue I felt was the shows story of Arya in Braavos which was much richer in book 5 and even the excerpt we got from GRRM is better than it's treatment on the show.

Seasons 7 and now 8 have an air of expediency about them that was not the fare in season 5 and 6.
As I have said before 8 is showing seams that didn't used to happen.

I think the issue, or at least the way I have seen it described, is that the TV show has to force arcs to complete for the series to have a conclusion - and they have limited time to do it, while GRRM will have as much 'time and space' to complete the story arcs 'naturally' in the books.

 

[Koopa]

this is getting into a pointless flamewar of what a fanbase is.

In any case i'm sure a lot of people still enjoy season 8. Personally I still think it has a lot of good moments too. And i also think the first couple of season were being overly gratuitous at times just for the sake of it. There were seasons i felt the show becoming a bit too feminist. I'm all for equality but i feel hollywood isn't doing equality a favour at times. However i definitely fall into the camp that feels that the quality of the show has dropped for some time now. Small inconsistencies became big constant inconsistencies. (time travelling on the forefront). too many simple getoutofjailfreecards. no complex plots, just shock moments for the sake of it. weird instant character development cause they didn't portray the developments well enough. I just feel that there are quite a few people who feel this way. Who still enjoy the show for what it is, but no longer think the last seasons special. Just good tv. For instance the depictment of King landing as a warzone was done marvelously. But some of the storytelling beyond that was much less so.

 

[Ursa major]

so I'll stick with "spectacularly narrow and probably wrong"

So on your definition, the people who are making such a big fuss of criticising the season are a small minority of the show's fanbase... and so can safely be ignored (even if there was another season on its way).


My definition is of a fanbase is that it consists of fans (I know, shocking), i.e. those who are invested emotionally in something (such as football fans, usually of a particular club/team, as opposed to those who may enjoy watching a game on the TV if it's on). So it's "invested in" rather than just "interested in". (Or, perhaps, it's the difference between "love" and "like".

It is that emotional investment that makes a fan far more vehement in their criticisms than the average viewer would be... as is being amply demonstrated by the over-the-top reactions to Season 8.

 

[Koopa]

I think the issue, or at least the way I have seen it described, is that the TV show has to force arcs to complete for the series to have a conclusion - and they have limited time to do it, while GRRM will have as much 'time and space' to complete the story arcs 'naturally' in the books.

Some of that is down to choices made though. I don't think the overall big picture of Jaime's arc is bad. It's just their depictment of it left to be desired. Jaime goes from being disgusted with himself and Cersei, to allowing his feelings of admiration for Brienne (who is what he wanted to be) to grow. To going back to cersei after giving into his feelings for Brienne overnight. The overall arc isn't bad, and it suits his character. The good deeds and the bad. It is how the writers chose to portrau the story arc that leaves to be desired. Is it cause of lack of time alone? maybe. Methinks they just aren't as good at writing as grrm is. That is not so strange in and of itself. But it starts becoming a problem when the depictment of the storylines start to fall short across the board. Still a good tv show, which lots of great stuff. But that what made it special is mostly (but not entirely) gone this last 2 seasons.

 

[svalbard]

Some of that is down to choices made though. I don't think the overall big picture of Jaime's arc is bad. It's just their depictment of it left to be desired. Jaime goes from being disgusted with himself and Cersei, to allowing his feelings of admiration for Brienne (who is what he wanted to be) to grow. To going back to cersei after giving into his feelings for Brienne overnight. The overall arc isn't bad, and it suits his character. The good deeds and the bad. It is how the writers chose to portrau the story arc that leaves to be desired. Is it cause of lack of time alone? maybe. Methinks they just aren't as good at writing as grrm is. That is not so strange in and of itself. But it starts becoming a problem when the depictment of the storylines start to fall short across the board. Still a good tv show, which lots of great stuff. But that what made it special is mostly (but not entirely) gone this last 2 seasons.

Let's expand on Jaime's arc for a moment.

There was always a sexual tension between Jaime and Brienne. I am sure many of us have experienced that emotion at some stage in our lives and will have what if thoughts to our dying day. On the eve of battle he acts on those emotions by knighting Brienne. None of them expect to live.

After the battle they consummate the relationship. It is post-battle, emotions are high, they have survived the greatest fight of their lives, seen horrors beyond their imagination. It is an instinctive thing, a raw emotion, on his part anyway. Something he regrets because his new allies are on their way to kill his true love.

The more I think about it the more I get his story arc.

 

[L.L.Lotte]

The tensions in this thread just show how successful the show really is, to be honest. 11 pages of comments. That rarely happens on any other show.

Regardless of how we feel the episode was handled, it was still a success because, for better or worse, it got a large portion of world talking about it after having watched it.

 

[Judderman]

Next episode is Brienne going to come to Kings Landing and find Jamie's body in the ruins? Carry it out of the city wailing, and bury him. Then she chops off Dany's head.
... Meanwhile other Northerners kill off the Targ Jon and a surprised dragon, and Dany's key supporters, and then Sansa is installed on the throne. Tyrion is later seen with Sansa, while Bronn waits in the shadows. Arya stands behind him in deeper shadows. Armies of Dorne and/or Ironborn amass near the borders.

 

[ctg]

 

[Al Jackson]

Next episode is Brienne going to come to Kings Landing and find Jamie's body in the ruins? Carry it out of the city wailing, and bury him. Then she chops off Dany's head.
... Meanwhile other Northerners kill off the Targ Jon and a surprised dragon, and Dany's key supporters, and then Sansa is installed on the throne. Tyrion is later seen with Sansa, while Bronn waits in the shadows. Arya stands behind him in deeper shadows. Armies of Dorne and/or Ironborn amass near the borders.

My sense of things is that none of that happens.
On the other hand , from the story narrative as it stands there is one event that I am expecting.
If that does not happen the story will have taken a twist I was not expecting and my expectation would be undercut,
which would be great!
I am hoping something really unexpected happens that I had not imagined, but I am not betting on it.

There is one scenario I thought of long ago that would be out of left field.
Dany surveys the wreckage and tells everybody "Screw this! "I am taking my Unsullied and Dothraki and Dragon and go back to Meereen where I have friends , stew in your own juices!"
Leaves.

 

[AlexH]

Wow. I expected Dany to attempt to kill Cersei but not fly off the handle anywhere near as badly as she did. Those scenes were some of the best action scenes in Game of Thrones. The Varys scenes were disappointing. I thought more should have been made of that considering he's been a main character as far back as I remember.

Does anyone remember an ancient man in a chest a few series ago? Someone opened the chest, and the man screamed or made some sort of high-pitched noise, shaking the chest, and the chest was closed again.

 

[Judderman]

My sense of things is that none of that happens.

Oh definitely not. But it would be unexpected if rather cheesy,

 

[Judderman]

There is one scenario I thought of long ago that would be out of left field.
Dany surveys the wreckage and tells everybody "Screw this! "I am taking my Unsullied and Dothraki and Dragon and go back to Meereen where I have friends , stew in your own juices!"
Leaves.

That would be another amusing one.

 

[Judderman]

Does anyone remember an ancient man in a chest a few series ago? Someone opened the chest, and the man screamed or made some sort of high-pitched noise, shaking the chest, and the chest was closed again.

I think that was the guy that had ordered Varys to be made into a eunuch. Serving his punishment.

 

[Al Jackson]

I think that was the guy that had ordered Varys to be made into a eunuch. Serving his punishment.

Remember High Priestess Kinvara and Varys exchange in S06E05? I guess that is forever unresolved now?

 

[Danny McG]

I'm not one of those annoying "I've never watched GOT" people, I'm one of those "by S3 I'd started to read a book while it was on" people.

It just couldn't hold my attention anymore. My fault probably because I didn't follow all the little plots and deals going on.
My wife still watches it and burbles away about what happened the next day to my blank expression.
There again she does the same thing after she watches Coronation Street. (Trying desperately for some social interaction I suppose)

 

[Dave]

Well, Dragonfire is still one plot that they haven't used yet to destroy Emmerdale village or the Queen Vic, Albert Square. I guess they are holding those back in reserve for a time when viewing figures drop.

 

[Ursa major]

Well, Dragonfire is still one plot that they haven't used yet to destroy Emmerdale village

Although Emmerdale -- specifically the village of Beckindale (according to Wikipedia**) -- was attacked by a big metal dragon quite a few years ago (1993) and the attack occured in late December (i.e. Winter)....


** - Very Important Note: I have never watched Emmerdale, but the event I mention did make it into the news in those halcyon days before the goings on in soaps were regularly reported as "news" across the media.

 

[Culhwch]

I found this article quite good at summing up my own thoughts on the Dany situation.

That 'Sudden' Game Of Thrones Turn Was Actually A Long Time Coming

 

[Koopa]

some guy above asked about a guy in a chest, this was just mentioned in the linked article from the post above. Maybe that is what you were thinking of:

Xaro Xhoan Daxos, the guy who staged a coup against Qarth’s leadership and stole her dragons?Locked inside a vault to slowly suffocate. then again that was a vault, not a chest so dunno. Maybe it had to with varys after all.

 

[Ursa major]

then again that was a vault, not a chest so dunno

Two different men; two different means of confinement; two different people confining them thus.