Gender bias in terminology

[Dan Jones]

Goddess is a good one. Princess is the other big one I suppose.

*squints*

Queen?

 

[Astro Pen]

I use 'you guys' gender universally. I picked it up from American sit coms decades ago.
Though sometimes it is perchance all male male like "the guys in maintenance reckon...".

 

[Danny McG]

I get a bit confused with the 'newer' sf books and it'll go along for a chapter or two saying "they" before I realize it's one character who's like non binary.

And sometimes it isn't! - one I read earlier this year had 'they' for a starship pilot, so I thought it was a non binary character, but then it was revealed there'd been a bad warp accident years ago and it genuinely was two people whose bodies were horribly merged together forever.

So yes, some word needs adopted to SF trope level* so it's clear right away.

(* By trope level I mean for example firing a 'blaster' or spending 'credits')

 

[.matthew.]

I only see the point in gendered terms when it's relevant to the thing they are describing.

Chairman could just be chair, it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman. Same for police officers, doctors, etc. Even hero as it doesn't matter.

For acting though, where looks are pretty much everything and gender is quite clearly important for roles, it makes sense to have two names. Otherwise, you have to go on to clarify on a regular basis. Plus, as mentioned above, awards. If there was no difference, they should compete for the same prizes, right?

 

[Elckerlyc]

As to awards, I know one country where they have dumped the separate awards for actors and actresses. It's now 1 award for all actors. This was introduced without any consultation of the actors themselves. Not many approved after it was announced.

 

[Steve Harrison]

I have not included any non binary characters in my work so far, because I haven't thought of it, haven't got my head around the terminology and because I'm old and don't like change.

I have been fascinated, though, by the character Taylor Mason in the TV series BILLIONS, who in the show and (the actor) in real life is referred to as they/them. The show is rapid fire with lots of multi-character scenes discussing other characters and it's fascinating and very impressive watching them navigate the language.

My daughter has a flatmate who is referred to as they/them, but until I saw the show I couldn't quite connect with how that worked.

 

[hitmouse]

I believe this is part of a (slow) trend in language. Many of the terms using the suffix -man have been replaced in common usage: 'chair' and 'fire fighter' etc. In the US, hurricanes are now given alternate male and female sounding names. This latter disparity will likely continue for a while, we still are not ready for a boy named Sue.

Hurricanes are a prime example where the nomenclature of Clint or Raquel is clearly inappropriate, alternating gender or not. Should be Hurricane Complete ******* or Hurricane Utter Tosspot or suchlike.

 

[Steve Harrison]

Hurricanes are a prime example where the nomenclature of Clint or Raquel is clearly inappropriate, alternating gender or not. Should be Hurricane Complete ******* or Hurricane Utter Tosspot or suchlike.

Post that on Twitter and you will be bombarded by people offended on behalf of hurricanes.

 

[Astro Pen]

I thought they and them were plural?

 

[Steve Harrison]

I thought they and them were plural?

They were.

 

[Danny McG]

I thought they and them were plural?

We thought so as well

See what I did there? I used we for me to show binary status (is the Queen as well)

 

[HareBrain]

I thought they and them were plural?

It's always been used as singular -- "If you know any person who's been affected, they can contact this number".

Personally, I wish there were a dedicated neutral singular pronoun, because sometimes it's almost impossible to avoid confusion about whether the speaker/writer means singular or plural. I had a conversation with someone recently about their non-binary child, who was going to meet that child's partner. In some cases it was anyone's guess who was being referred to.

 

[Mouse]

I don't understand the confusion over them/they. It's always been used as a singular, as HB says. "I was talking to someone the other day, and they said..." etc.

I come from Somerset and we use 'they' to mean 'those' too. (eg. "Look at all they people!")

 

[hitmouse]

I don't understand the confusion over them/they. It's always been used as a singular, as HB says. "I was talking to someone the other day, and they said..." etc.

I come from Somerset and we use 'they' to mean 'those' too. (eg. "Look at all they people!")

Favourite Somerset word: ahfsblahk.
People used to work in them pre- pandemic.

 

[Phyrebrat]

I thought it was typhoon or hurricane- now I’m confuséd.

I don’t think it’s a problem for most people in terms of changing or adapting the use of pronouns as much as it is combating the force of habit. We’re all learning as we go along. I slip up now and again. I just apologise and correct myself.

 

[Swank]

I don’t think it’s a problem for most people in terms of changing or adapting the use of pronouns as much as it is combating the force of habit. We’re all learning as we go along. I slip up now and again. I just apologise and correct myself.

I sometimes use "man" as a casual address to both men and women. (Later, man!) Recently I did it when speaking to a trans woman and immediately felt stupid, despite treating her like other women. (But she didn't know me well enough to know that.)


There was an honorific in terms like actress or heroine. I suppose there is a problem pointing out that a woman is doing a great job in the role of "hero", but there was still compliment in those gendered terms. An appreciation of the gender that merits acknowledgement, not a diminutive.

What's funny is that no one sees a problem in saying "female actor". Breaking "actor" and "-ess" into to two words doesn't change the meaning. You're still gendering the actor - just less elegantly.

 

[Danny McG]

. Same for police officers, doctors, etc

Somehow Postman Pat and Fireman Sam wouldn't seem right as Postperson Pat and Firefighter Sam.
They'd need new theme songs for a start!

 

[Dave]

For acting though, where looks are pretty much everything and gender is quite clearly important for roles, it makes sense to have two names.

I don't really have a hat in this argument at all, but I just wanted to make a point that the word "actress" has some unsavoury historical connotations that make it inappropriate. Whereas, "Princess" and "Queen" do not come along with such baggage.

They'd need new theme songs for a start!

"Postie Pat"?

Around here, they are called "the Postie" anyway, whatever their gender.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Somehow Postman Pat and Fireman Sam wouldn't seem right as Postperson Pat and Firefighter Sam.
They'd need new theme songs for a start!

I don’t think the requirement for a new song should get in the way of gender balance and representation.

And, sadly, ‘it doesn’t sound right’ is the sort of statement that gets used to block gender equality. It only doesn’t sound right because you’re not used to it

I shall await the nuking of this unashamedly grumpy feminist post

 

[Phyrebrat]

I don’t think the requirement for a new song should get in the way of gender balance and representation.

And, sadly, ‘it doesn’t sound right’ is the sort of statement that gets used to block gender equality. It only doesn’t sound right because you’re not used to it

I shall await the nuking of this unashamedly grumpy feminist post

No nuke here

It’s dated (and luckily kids are far more on it than we are as they’re growing up with it). In Bod, Postman Frank, Farmer Barleymow and PC Forgothisname all get jobs; Aunt Flo gets to be … a spinster??