"promise me, Ned" and "the value of Howland Reed"

[TK-421]

Just shows how 'misguided' Ned really was.

 

[cape_royds]

I'm convinced that Lyanna wanted Ned to protect her child by Rhaegar from Robert's wrath.

If Robert knew of any descendant of Rhaegar, he would go on the warpath. For example, he sent assassins after a 12-year old girl a continent away. Robert's hatred of Targaryens is unlimited and unreasoning, and Ned knows it. So did Lyanna.

Eddard was taking a big risk by sheltering the child of Robert's arch-enemy under his own roof. He didn't dare trust anyone with the secret, even Catelyn. But Ned would even sooner have his reputation tarnished, and have some tension with his wife, than break the promise he made to Lyanna on her deathbed.

And typical of Ned Stark, he didn't send the kid off somewhere to be fostered in exile. Instead, he took responsibility upon himself and raised that child of tragedy under his own roof.

So Ned paid a big psychological price, by keeping a terrible secret from both his wife and his best friend.

 

[JDP]

On Dany=Stannis:
I can't agree with the whole 'Dany = Stannis in a dress' thing - They may not be opposites, but they're very different.

Dany acts through her own sense of what's right and what's wrong as much as she can; it's often a case of emotion overriding the laws of the land. She follows her own moral compass.

Stannis, on the other hand (well, at least before he became Melisandre's puppet) does everything by the book, whether he likes it or not - he is 100% duty & law over personal choice. It's made pretty clear from Maester Cressen's nostalgia trips that he was like this as a child also; straight laced, solemn and dutiful to the point of having no one close to him. Maester Cressen pitied him for it.

Just because they'd probably both have freed the slaves doesn't mean they're the same; they'd have done it for completely different reasons.

On R+L=J:
I'd suspected that Jon might have been Lyanna's, not Ned's, but had never really thought it through to the point of realising that he was Rheagar's. This adds up very nicely.

As to Dany and Jon sharing the throne, I can't see it happening. I think he'll be a head of the dragon, but given Martin's style, I think it's inevitable that one of them will die. I'm not sure which would give the biggest emotional impact - my initial thought was that Jon would have to die, but it would perhaps make more sense for him to survive and rule rather than Dany, who doesn't really know Westeros. Also makes me think that the third head will be female (?).

Thinking about Jon, did Rhaegar take Lyanna as his (second?) wife? She loved him didn't she? I can't quite remember the details of all that. It would be interesting if Jon had been legitimate the whole time, eh?

I don't think the fact that he doesn't look like a Targaryen really matters (though it is interesting - as of Ned's natural children, only Arya shares the Stark looks rather than the Tullys' suggesting a 'weak' Stark seed). The whole Targaryen fondness of inbreeding (as suggested earlier in the thread) would explain how they keep their 'look' despite having genetically recessive physical traits.

On Howland Reed=Guy Incognito:
Yes, Howland Reed is a bit of an enigma, eh? I think it's a given that he was the crannogman who won the tourney in the story.

Could it be that he either had or had been told of a Green Dream about the fight at the Tower of Joy. If, like Jojen, he knows the time and circumstance of his death - and knew that this wasn't it - he could have fought with a ferocity and disregard that could have allowed him to overcome supposedly superior opponents. Perhaps he used the crannogmen's knowledge of poisons as well. Might be a bit disappointing to learn that the Sword of the Morning died from an arrow in the foot though.

Ned's reticence to speak of what happened does suggest something underhand/darker though. Perhaps some kind of warging or other green art took place. I suspect that Ashara's death was suicide though, not murder.

I reckon, though, that Martin will save Howland Reed and these explanations until right at the end. I'd definitely agree with the possibility that Howland Reed has been hiding in plain sight the whole time, though. I'm trying to think of all the small, slight male characters who are possibilities. Do crannogmen have other distinctive physical traits other than their build?

 

[YOSSARIAN]

1) Jojen is Howland. I've said it before, and I still don't care that I don't have any evidence to back this theory.

2) Many Targaryens do not have the 'classic' Targ features. See the first Dunk and Egg story.

3)Howland Reed is going to show his worth in ADWD. I'm pretty sure Robb sent some of loyal men up through the Neck right before going to the Twins. These troops did not go to the Twins and to my knowledge were loyal in deed (not just word). They were supposed to gather up the crannogmen and retake Moat Cailin. Robb's men were supposed to hit it from the other side, but...

 

[Boaz]

I still don't care that I don't have any evidence to back this theory.

Well said! That's the spirit! I could not have said it better myself.

CR, I don't know that Lyanna knew of Robert's hatred for Targs when she died. I don't know that Robert knew the depths of his own irrational obsession with Rhaegar back then. But an adolescent orphan girl on another continent and a son of the usurper's arch-rival in the usurper's back yard are two different things. Even if Robert did not hate Rhaegar, Lyanna knew that Jon must die for Robert to rule.

JDP, it's fun to watch someone learn about R+L=J for the first time.

 

[YOSSARIAN]

JDP, it's fun to watch someone learn about R+L=J for the first time.

When I first came to the forums I saw this "R+L=J" all over the place and I didn't even know what the hell it was supposed to mean; I had to read through several threads before I found out that all these people think Jon isn't even Ned's son! It's such a solid theory that now I pretty much consider it a fact. "R+L=J" turned me on to the idea that ASOIAF was much deeper than the words on the pages.

 

[Boaz]

Me too, Yoss. I read R+L=J for the first time in early 2004... I was slow on the uptake, but now I'm a certified conspiracy theorist.

JDP, the Dany=another Stannis comments are not meant to go very deeply into the characters' characters. I don't completely agree with the idea, but basically they are both outsiders who feel the kingdom belongs to them even though nobody wants them to rule. Both feel more strongly about doing justice than promoting measures to keep themselves in power. Both must invade to get the throne.

 

[TK-421]

Boaz: There is a mistake in your logic about both being outsiders. First, that is certainly true of Stannis and nobody really does want him to rule. But, that is not the same for Dany. Most do not even know she is alive and what she's up to. They have their own wars to fight and these wars have bled the kingdom dry with winter coming. Dany and her knack for championning the small folk will arrive on the shores of Westeros like the blessed virgin.

 

[Boaz]

Outsider, foreigner, stranger, alien, intruder, invader, outlander, newcomer, pariah, dissident, outcast, freak, weirdo, johnny-come-lately... I don't espouse the Dany=another Stannis concept so I'm certainly not gonna defend it. Except to say that I don't know any North Korean or Iranian generals or even if they exist, but I sure don't want them coming to North America.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I think Ive said this before...to most people an invading army is still an invading army. Regardless of the benefits that may come with an occupations. Sure, given time the populace comes around if a concentered effort is made....Martin foreshadows this when he speaks of how Hightower found the Laughing Knight(was it Smiling?) in one of Jaimes POVs...

 

[lauren20062001]

I thought it was compassion, not honor, that drove Ned to talk to Cersei. He knew that Robert would kill the kids and was offering Cersei a way to save them.

 

[TK-421]

I think Ive said this before...to most people an invading army is still an invading army.

Yeah, yeah, we've had this, among many, of our disagreements. But, I don't think that a populace that may look back on the centuries of Targ rule with nostalgia, will see this as any other invasion. Especially, when she shows up with 3 dragons.

Boaz: I guess you didn't get your invitation to the talk at Columbia University to see Mahmoud Ahmadinejad...

 

[Knight of the Day]

my worthless guess

Howland reed has already been seen: Possibly whats his name....LEM ( maybe...)
His castle cannot be found as his people dont have one! They travel the lands.
They're descendants of the Chidren of the Forest.... to some degree

BYE-BYE

 

[Boaz]

I don't think that a populace that may look back on the centuries of Targ rule with nostalgia, will see this as any other invasion. Especially, when she shows up with 3 dragons.

Dany's last name is Targaryen, she has dragons, and BFS, but legions of Unsullied, flamboyant Free City mercenary companies, and Dorhraki savages (I think her bloodriders will recruit a few thousand) will not be viewed a liberators.

Boaz: I guess you didn't get your invitation to the talk at Columbia University to see Mahmoud Ahmadinejad...

They did not invite me to listen to Idon'tdomyjob.

KotD, I'm not sold on Howland as Lem or Tom.

 

[YOSSARIAN]

Despite other claims I've made to the contrary, I think Howland Reed is probably not wandering around Westeros pretending to be someone else. He's probably sitting around in his mobile castle, patiently waiting to unleash his superpowers against the evildoers of Westeros. Yes, he does have superpowers.

 

[Boaz]

I was reading from AGOT the other day and I think I made an important connection. It's new to me, but if the following is already familiar to you, please forgive me.

In Eddard's fourth chapter, he arrives in KL and is taken by Baelish to see Catelyn. Littlefinger pushes Eddard's buttons and Eddard reacts... He could still hear Sansa pleading as Lyanna had pleaded once. We don't know what Lyanna pleaded... well, it was promis me, Ned, but what was the promise?

Let's look at Sansa's pleading to get a clue to Lyanna's promise.

Sansa's plea is from Eddard's third chapter where Arya is found and then judged by Robert. Cersei forces the issue that a direwolf must die.

"Stop them," Sansa pleaded, "don't let them do it, please, please, it wasn't Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can't, it wasn't Lady, don't let them hurt Lady, I'll make her be good, I promise, I promise..." She started to cry.

Sansa asked Eddard not to let Robert and Cersei kill her beloved pet. He could still hear Sansa pleading as Lyanna had pleaded once. I think this means that Lyanna once pleaded for the life of something or someone that she loved. Specifically she asked Eddard to keep Robert and Cersei from killing her beloved.

 

[TK-421]

Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner in connect the dots from Lyanna to Jon to Rheagar

 

[Koopa]

Lets go sarcastic now it's summertime....

 

[Eulalia]

Good eye, Boaz. Could also be pleading about saving the baby's life? (making assumptions)

 

[Boaz]

Yes, that was my whole point... but it looks like I did not finish my last sentence. Above I'd written about a beloved pet and I wanted to finish with a beloved child. Ooops.