"promise me, Ned" and "the value of Howland Reed"

[juleska]

I don't think Ned was the only one to tell the Heart Tree. We got a glimpse of it when Bran saw a pregnant woman who looked like Arya (Helloooooo Lyanna!) praying that her child will grow to avenge her. I think that's a tip that we will learn the definitive truth of Jon's parentage through Bran and the World Wide Root (thanks Boaz for that terminology).

I'm also beginning to think that Howland Reed is dead.

 

[sacrosanct]

That's definitely a consideration, but...

The topic I was really addressing was the content of Ned's promise to Lyanna - who couldn't possibly have told a heart tree after her death.

I still say that she asked Ned (at least) to protect her child from Robert Baratheon.

 

[juleska]

Ahhh....well that much is true. Though if Lyanna did reveal the father of her child and some details about it to the Heart Tree, then a deduction would be logical.

 

[Tywin]

I don't think Ned was the only one to tell the Heart Tree. We got a glimpse of it when Bran saw a pregnant woman who looked like Arya (Helloooooo Lyanna!) praying that her child will grow to avenge her. I think that's a tip that we will learn the definitive truth of Jon's parentage through Bran and the World Wide Root (thanks Boaz for that terminology).

Do we have the actual text of that passage to reference?

I think we're pretty certain this is Lyanna, but my question is who would she need vengeance on? Vengeance for what?

 

[Yavannie]

Do we have the actual text of that passage to reference?

I think we're pretty certain this is Lyanna, but my question is who would she need vengeance on? Vengeance for what?

I'd like to see the actual text as well, but if she was VERY pregnant, word might have reached her of Robert killing Rhaegar at the Trident?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I don't think Ned was the only one to tell the Heart Tree. We got a glimpse of it when Bran saw a pregnant woman who looked like Arya (Helloooooo Lyanna!) praying that her child will grow to avenge her. I think that's a tip that we will learn the definitive truth of Jon's parentage through Bran and the World Wide Root (thanks Boaz for that terminology).

I'm also beginning to think that Howland Reed is dead.

I may be splitting hairs here but, the tower of joy is in the south... WAAAY in the south... There are no weirwoods (or any trees with faces) there. Does this matter? Can Bran see through any tree?

Maybe the pregnant girl isn't something Bran sees in the past, but something that comes in the future. Maybe it is Jayne Poole. She was being passed off as Arya and has been raped all kinds of ways by the Boltons. Just food for thought.

 

[sacrosanct]

It could be Jeyne Poole.

As far as Bran's abilities or the presence of heart trees in Dorne... I'm not sure.

As for the pregnant girl's request for revenge, obviously Jeyne has a motive, and so does Lyanna - if Robert Baratheon's account of Rhaegar and Lyanna is indeed correct, and she was kidnapped and raped.

 

[Tywin]

The Tower of Joy is next to the Red Mountains of Dorne which are inhabited by the Stony Dornishmen... descendants of the Andals and the First Men, not of the Roynar. Seems likely that there might be weirwoods down there.

Understood that The Isle of Faces are the only "official" location of Weirwoods south of the Reach, but I can't think of any other reason that Martin would have included a population of First Men near the Tower of Joy.

 

[Tywin]

Ah, as I research this I'm reading that speculation points to the pregnant Stark woman as one of the "She Wolves of Winterfell" that ruled Winterfell when their husbands had been killed and before the next male Stark came of age. This is supposedly going to be covered in a future "Dunk and Egg" story, and it would follow the reverse-chronology of Bran's vision (his vision was going back in time through different scenes, and if that were Lyanna it would have thrown off the timeline significantly).

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

The Tower of Joy is next to the Red Mountains of Dorne which are inhabited by the Stony Dornishmen... descendants of the Andals and the First Men, not of the Roynar. Seems likely that there might be weirwoods down there.

Understood that The Isle of Faces are the only "official" location of Weirwoods south of the Reach, but I can't think of any other reason that Martin would have included a population of First Men near the Tower of Joy.

It was mentioned that the first men cut down all of the weirwoods because they thought the Old Gods were watching them through the eyes, and they were right. Also, all the visions Bran sees in that chapter are all from the eyes of the weirwood in Winterfel.

 

[Lost Beyond Belief]

Oh come on Boaz, are you serious? HR could have fathered Jon???

But, who the hell is Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse??? Where did he show up?

“I would do the same if she were my daughter,” said the last knight, a short, wiry man with a wry smile, pointed nose, and bristly orange hair. “Particularly around louts like us.”

Well now, this may help in my theory that Sansa is NOT a Stark (crackpot but I am sticking to it) Maybe Cat had a fling with a hedge knight

 

[juleska]

I may be splitting hairs here but, the tower of joy is in the south... WAAAY in the south... There are no weirwoods (or any trees with faces) there. Does this matter? Can Bran see through any tree?

Maybe the pregnant girl isn't something Bran sees in the past, but something that comes in the future. Maybe it is Jayne Poole. She was being passed off as Arya and has been raped all kinds of ways by the Boltons. Just food for thought.

I wasn't thinking that Bran would witness the events of the Tower of Joy through a weirwood, but that someone who was present may reveal the full story to or in the presence of a weirwood.

That said....Tywin dug up this thread on Westeros.org where the consensus seems to be something I hadn't considered: That the specific series of events Bran witnesses in that sequence are all events from the past, and that they move backwards through time in a linear fashion.

The sequence is:

1. His younger father praying with a bowed head "…let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive.";
   
   
2. A girl and a younger boy play fighting with branches;
   
   
3. A pregnant women coming out of the black pool praying for a son to avenge her;
   
   
4. A slender girl on her toes kissing a knight as tall as Hodor;
   
   
5. A pale dark eyed youth cutting three branches from the weirwood and shaping them into arrows;
   
   
6. Tall, hard, stern men with beards in fur and chain mail forcing a captive down on his knees. A white haired woman killing the captive with a bronze sickle.

If these visions are moving backwards through time, and that makes sense, then the pregnant woman cannot be Lyanna, as the girl and boy play fighting are Lyanna and one of her brothers (of that much I'm certain, as I am that Ned is referring to bringing Jon to Winterfell and claiming him as his own son to protect Lyanna's secret).

 

[Ashen]

(i put this in the Jon Theory, so apologies for double posting)

I've just listened to the Audio book, and i noticed that when Ned has the hallucinations in the cell, he remembers making the promise to Lyanna "on her bloody bed"

a little later when Dany meets the Magai, she is told that she has experience "with the bloody bed"

(sorry if this has been picked up before, I'm about to go through the 9 pages before)

 

[Tywin]

Noted use of the same terminology, but do we have any other evidence that Magai would have any connection with Westeros or the Tower of Joy?

Do you have a plotline in mind that would necessitate that?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

(i put this in the Jon Theory, so apologies for double posting)

I've just listened to the Audio book, and i noticed that when Ned has the hallucinations in the cell, he remembers making the promise to Lyanna "on her bloody bed"

a little later when Dany meets the Magai, she is told that she has experience "with the bloody bed"

(sorry if this has been picked up before, I'm about to go through the 9 pages before)

This certainly lends strength to the theory that Lyanna was giving birth in the ToJ, though I sincerely doubt the Maegi had anything to do with that.

Can anyone find the context in which the Maegi says this line? are we sure she is referring to the bloody bed being a birthing bed, or could it be reference to a death bed?

 

[Yavannie]

I really can't see any other reason for the bed being bloody other than her giving birth - suicide, perhaps, but is that likely? If the Kingsguard had wanted her dead they could have done a better job.

The reason why three of the Kingsguard were there was surely that there was a Targaryen present, i e the child.

 

[juleska]

Furthermore....he was not just any Targaryen, but a legitimate child of the Prince and Heir to the Iron Throne. How can that be? Rhaegar already had a wife. Targs have a well established reputation for polygamy in the ASOIAF canon. And I believe there is ample evidence to suggest that Lyanna and Rhaegar were legitimately married. Some of it is here, reference to Theon's dream when he was in Winterfell (post-Iron Islands and pre-Reek): http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/foru...as-3-heads-a-discussion-on-4.html#post1630801

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I really can't see any other reason for the bed being bloody other than her giving birth - suicide, perhaps, but is that likely? If the Kingsguard had wanted her dead they could have done a better job.

The reason why three of the Kingsguard were there was surely that there was a Targaryen present, i e the child.

I wasn't trying to suggest the Kingsguard had tried to kill her. Bloody Bed most likely does reference a birthing bed. However, in the case of Lyanna, the bloody bed was her birthing bed AND her death bed. I was just wondering if the Maegi was saying she had experience with Birth or that she had experience with death.

 

[grip junky]

In my minds eye, I see the fight at the tower of joy as an all out brawl. Back to back the smell of blood, piss and crap all around. 5 minutes seems like 5 hours kind of thing. After a fight like that , I would bet eddard felt the same about all 5 of the men that went to the tower with him. Howland was his only brother that lived. Growing up in the neck as the someday lord Howland had training and fighting skill. May not have been tournament skills, killing skills all the same. The most skilled lost that day.

I will just put this out there. Audie Murphy 5'5" tall and 110 lbs.

Howland may or may not be green, but that day at the tower was all about guts. I hope so anyway.

 

[Yavannie]

I wasn't trying to suggest the Kingsguard had tried to kill her. Bloody Bed most likely does reference a birthing bed. However, in the case of Lyanna, the bloody bed was her birthing bed AND her death bed. I was just wondering if the Maegi was saying she had experience with Birth or that she had experience with death.

No, no, I didn't think you were. I was simply thinking out loud, going through other (far-fetched) possibilities