"promise me, Ned" and "the value of Howland Reed"

[Eulalia]

No worries. I thought you meant Rhaegar, and was slightly puzzled, but I am the last one to get uptight about message board proofing. But for you, I will take extra care to spell Tolkien correctly!

 

[Boaz]

Eulalia, As you can see, I expect clarity from all of you that I do not reciprocate. Just another of my double standards that makes my world go round!

 

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

We assume the wimpy crannogman cannot be Howland, and you theorize that Lyanna was the Knight. But where, then, is Howland? He must figure into the story somehow.

What's this? Lyanna is the Knight? I don't think so... Lyanna was named the queen of love and beauty at that tourney if it's the same one I'm thinking about.

And I believe the crannogman was Howland because it shows how he met Eddard and Lyanna. Why else would Jojen be telling the story?

I also believe in the L+R=J theory. It makes perfect sense to me. Ned was promising not only to keep Jon safe but also to keep him secret. The reason the "promise me Ned" comes up whenever Ned has a moment with Robert is because he feels bad for not telling him. He knows Robert would kill any son of Rhaegar, even if Lyanna had been the mother, because he hates the Targaryens so much. It's also why Eddard was particularly affected when Robert wanted to have Daenerys Killed, because it could easily have been Jon in her place. So the "promise me" comesup because his feelings are so contested between being loyal to Lyanna and being loyal to Robert.

Oh and to what JDP said earlier on the L+R=J subject, Jon can never be legitimate, even if his parents are Lyanna and Rhaegar. Just because your parents are both highborn doesn't make you any less of a ******* if they are not married when you are born. He can be legalized by the king or queen but he will always be a *******. Just look at Edric Storm. His father was Robert Baratheon and his mother was a Florent. He is still a *******, however.

 

[Boaz]

Ghost, I don't know if I believe that Lyanna was the mystery knight, but it's it's an interesting idea and it's laid out better earlier in this thread, iirc.

Also, there has been theorizing that Rhaegar might have actually married Lyanna. I know there are problems with it, but Tyrion secretly wed and Aegon the Conqueror was a polygamist... so there are precedents.

 

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

Ghost, I don't know if I believe that Lyanna was the mystery knight, but it's it's an interesting idea and it's laid out better earlier in this thread, iirc.

Also, there has been theorizing that Rhaegar might have actually married Lyanna. I know there are problems with it, but Tyrion secretly wed and Aegon the Conqueror was a polygamist... so there are precedents.

I suppose there is some room for it. But I highly doubt it. It's more suiting, in my opinion, to have Jon start as the ******* and end as the *******, although moving up to a Prince's *******, if that is really considered a step up.

 

[Eulalia]

Someone should ask GRRM about his views on bastardy!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is precedence in the Middle Ages in England, if that is relevant. There was Willliam (the *******) the Conqueror. John of Ghent's children by Kathryn Swynford (commoner) were legitimized after the fact, in a way that ended up infusing the line of the English throne.
A little later, Elizabeth I was declared a ******* and that was never repealed. Half the British nobility is related to Charles II on the wrong side of the blanket...On the other hand, it was a big deal.

Jon can still ride a dragon no matter what!

Who knows?

 

[Boaz]

I was thinking today about the tournament of Harrenhal. Jaime was named to the Kingsguard. Rhaegar won the tourney. Lyanna was the Queen of Beauty. Eddard met Ashara. And Howland formed friendships with the four Starks... in particular Howland seemed to hit if off with Lyanna.

So Lyanna impressed both Rhaegar and Howland at that tourney. We've always focused on the triangles of Rhaegar/Lyanna/Robert and Rhaegar/Lyanna/Elia. But is there something to a possible triangle of Rhaegar/Lyanna/Howland? It's interesting that Howland went to the Tower of Joy and survived. Maybe he was with Eddard at her bedside. Maybe he did not fight against the Kingsguard... mayhaps he snuck in to find Lyanna and rescue her while the fighting was going on.

I don't know exactly what I'm even suggesting here... mayhaps Howland is Jon's father, mayhaps Howland loved Lyanna, mayhaps Lyanna lived and secretly went to live at Greywater Watch, mayhaps Howland was friends with Rhaegar, mayhaps the entire story for Jon and the entire cover up was Howland's idea... Lord knows Eddard had no head for duplicity, while Howland's army and castle remain hidden to this day.

I don't know. Was HR friends with Rhaegar? What if HR, out of loyalty to Lyanna and out of friendship to Rhaegar, committed himself to Robert's destruction?

Mayhaps Howland, a loyal Starkist, sent his children to guard Eddard's children that were in relative safety while he himself went looking for the missing ones? Okay, here's the one thing that I am suggesting... Howland is actually disguised as Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse. Both are men of small stature. Both seem to be confident of their martial skills. (Assuming that HR got better after being thrashed by mere squires so that he could survive Robert's Rebellion and the Tower of Joy.) HR once rode to a tower to find a missing female Stark and Shadrich is on his way to a tower to find a missing female Stark.

And other than that, I have nothing... I'd need AFFC in front of me to compare descriptions of the little Crannogman, Meera, and Jojen with Ser Shadrich.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

But if HR was loyal to the Targaryens, why didn't he have a crack at King Robert when he was passing through on the way to Winterfell? We've read many times about how hard it is to pass through Reed's marshes, and surely this was the best chance Reed was going to get at unseating the king and giving perhaps Viserys Targaryen over the sea a chance to avenge his older brother.

 

[viZion]

I really don't think Howland Reed has anything to do with fathering characters in this book other than the two green kids that are with Bran. It just doesn't make any sense based on the descriptions of the characters. Also, Jon wouldn't have much a of bloodline if his father was a swamp frog rather than Rhaegar.

However, I could see Howland Reed not actually participating in the battle with the Kingsguard. We've seen that his kids (Meera in particular) are very good at hunting and tracking. It's possible that he snuck into the Tower of Joy while the battle was raging to rescue Lyanna at Eddard's request. Eddard probably thought there was a very real possibility of no one surviving that battle so sending in Howland to rescue Lyanna makes sense. Maybe Howland was even the one to deliver the baby!

Another reason why it makes sense that Howland wasn't in the actual battle is that it appears he's not much of a swordsman. He allegedly had Lyanna fight for him in the Harrenhal tourney. It's bit hard to believe that he became skillful enough in that relatively short period of time to hold his own in a battle with three of the greatest old school Kingsguards and survive.

 

[Qhorin Halfhand]

I really don't think Howland Reed has anything to do with fathering characters in this book other than the two green kids that are with Bran. It just doesn't make any sense based on the descriptions of the characters. Also, Jon wouldn't have much a of bloodline if his father was a swamp frog rather than Rhaegar.

However, I could see Howland Reed not actually participating in the battle with the Kingsguard. We've seen that his kids (Meera in particular) are very good at hunting and tracking. It's possible that he snuck into the Tower of Joy while the battle was raging to rescue Lyanna at Eddard's request. Eddard probably thought there was a very real possibility of no one surviving that battle so sending in Howland to rescue Lyanna makes sense. Maybe Howland was even the one to deliver the baby!

Another reason why it makes sense that Howland wasn't in the actual battle is that it appears he's not much of a swordsman. He allegedly had Lyanna fight for him in the Harrenhal tourney. It's bit hard to believe that he became skillful enough in that relatively short period of time to hold his own in a battle with three of the greatest old school Kingsguards and survive.

I don't remember the exact quote but I vaguely remember Eddard saying or thinking that Arthur Dayne would have killed him, if not for Howland Reed. Seems to suggest he has some skill and participated in the battle to me!

 

[TK-421]

Oh come on Boaz, are you serious? HR could have fathered Jon???

Well, we have the report from Spain recently that GRRM (through Parris) pretty much confirmed that R+L=J.

Jojen and Meera are the only little swamp frogs that are the offspring on HR.

But, who the hell is Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse??? Where did he show up?

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Boaz, this is the description of Ser Shadrich when Brienne meets him:

Ser Shadrich was a wiry, fox-faced man with a sharp nose and a shock of orange hair, mounted on a rangy chestnut courser. Though he could not have been more than five foot two he had a cocksure manner.

Ser Shadrich is a hedge knight that Brienne meets while on the road trying to find Sansa. He is escorting a merchant to Duskendale and admits that he is trying to find Sansa Stark as well. At the end of AFFC he is in the employ of Littlefinger.

 

[viZion]

I don't remember the exact quote but I vaguely remember Eddard saying or thinking that Arthur Dayne would have killed him, if not for Howland Reed. Seems to suggest he has some skill and participated in the battle to me!

I figured there was some quote somewhere that indicated that he did participate in the battle but I couldn't remember it. Now that you mention it I do remember the passage you're talking about. Oh well, there goes my theory about Howland Reed sneaking into the Tower of Joy, not that it would have made any difference at all in the story if he had snuck in to rescue Lyanna.

 

[KESpires]

I was under the impression that this deadly embrace symbolized the imminent demise of both Robert and Ned. One death was catalyst to the other. And the wolf pups survived, but were scattered amongst different care-takers.

I just have to take this opportunity to rejoice and complain about something. It is #$@#$ awesome to read this series and know that the writer is more than just competent, he is masterful. Martin uses every tool in the book to make these stores so great. The amount of symbolism, foreshadowing (most VERY subtle), and the ease of which the back story filters in is just incredible.

Now to complain.

I've never, ever, never, ever read another fantasy series or novel that had such a masterful author.

WHERE ARE THEY ALL?

 

[KESpires]

I could see Howland Reed could have survived in a toe to toe fight witht he Kingsgaurd for 2 reasons

1.) The Knights of Westero's are trained in such a way that when confronted with a style of combat outside their own they have no answer. We have seen this several times in the books with Arya's Tutor, The Viper, and when Reeds Daughter fights.
2.) It is difficult to fight a man with a spearlike weapon he has two advantages over you. Reach and simplicity. Throw this in with a net and he can hinder you, stab you, submit you, and then pretty much kill you at his leisure.

I'll grant you number one without any argument. But as for number two...

The spear is a wonderfully efficient weapon, but it does have a problem. It's danger zone is very small, whereas a sword has a danger zone as long as the sword itself past your hand. A good swordsman, if trained properly (see number one) will get inside the range of the spearman or try to erase the spear's danger zone completely if the spear has a wooden shaft. That brings me to another weakness of the spear. Most spears have wooden shafts to stop them from weighing ridiculous amounts.


I think the best anti-sword weapon is the chain and sickle. You can disarm and maim your opponent simultaneously. A lot of samurai died to the chain and sickle and they are arguably the best swordsman in history (even if they fought with a different style from western swordsman).

Still, the spear is a standard. Swords aren't nullified by it. But they do need to train for the dang things.

 

[C Of K]

I've never, ever, never, ever read another fantasy series or novel that had such a masterful author.

WHERE ARE THEY ALL?

I'm still searching, and aspiring...

Let me know when you find even one.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Tried Erikson?

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Erikson's novels read like the plot synopses of video games. I tried the first one and I got tired of gods in floating castles and crazy sorceresses being reborn out of nothing in the middle of the plains of ancient risen dead tribesmen who are wandering for some mysterious purpose.

Also, his characterization sucks. This one young, handsome guy falls madly in love with some fat, middle-aged woman who he knew for all of a couple weeks. How realistic is that?

I was definitely not impressed.

 

[TK-421]

How do you really feel about it TSW? While Erikson is certainly not for everyone, there are some on here that really like his books.

I was definitely very impressed.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I think Erikson's characterisation is very good, when you think of all the characters he has to manage and keep distinct. I would agree however that GRRM does it better.