"promise me, Ned" and "the value of Howland Reed"

I'm not sure if it's a matter of who does it better since both do it very differently.

That said, in terms of series overall, I do prefer ASOIF over MBOTF.
 
Most spears have wooden shafts to stop them from weighing ridiculous amounts.

some might be dragon bone,dragon glass,dragon metal bringing the weight down but your right maybe only the best swordsman can get at them (jamie,sandor, ect.)

could HR be a child of the forest? maybe the powers havent awoken in his kids yet
 
Well the reach is an advantage and disadvantage at the same time. If you can strike a wounding or killing blow while you have them near the spear-tip then you're good. If not they you have to try to use maneuvers or trips to back them up. Once they're past the spear-tip you're in real trouble.
 
Oh come on Boaz, are you serious? HR could have fathered Jon???

Well, we have the report from Spain recently that GRRM (through Parris) pretty much confirmed that R+L=J.

Jojen and Meera are the only little swamp frogs that are the offspring on HR.

But, who the hell is Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse??? Where did he show up?
Sorry for keeping you waiting, TK.

HR+L=J? No, I don't think that. I was just musing... trying to provoke a new line of thinking.

I thought the Parris comment meant that R+L=J was too obvious and therefore Martin would never make it come true.

Shadrich was the merchant's guard that Brienne and Pod meet up with. He immediately recognized who Brienne was looking for and he offered his services... which the stupid wench turned down. He turned up, in the last Sansa chapter, as a new sellsword in Littlefinger's service.

whiskey, what happened in your last post? You accidentally slid in a few caps? Keep it up!
 
I think that fighting with a spear might to give you that much advantage one on one but lets not forget it was what? 7 on 3? So Howland could have just been trying to stay out of the way while getting a sly stab in every now and then?
 
I might say that a right style of spear can always win a sword (at least in my mind, if the sword is armoured to full and the spear is only very lightly). This means a constant retreat backwards on an even ground while pushing forward with your spear at the incoming sword - the sword tires after some times and makes for more sloppy moves.

However, what do you really think of three knights who managed to kill 5 men and almost slay another? Do we know the names of them all? At least two Valyrian swords clashing against each other, a civil war on two levels... Damned, I want a biography of the Sword of the Morning. It must be amazing... What happened to Dawn after that? Ned just took it back to the House Dayne? Lannisters could have repayed the courtesy with Ice.
 
I'd like to answer ur questions, Rider, but ur word usage has me confused a bit in ur last paragraph.

I'll try anyways .....

The 3 knights were the remaining Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. (a personal favorite scene of mine) They would be: Gerold Hightower "The White Bull" and Commander of Aerys Kingsguard, Arthur Dayne the Sword of the Morning and last would be Oswell Whent.

The 5 who died at the Tower of Joy: Lord Dustin, Jory's father Martin Cassel?? and I can't remember the other guys cuz i dont have the book on hand. :(

I don't know if Eddard was using Ice in the battle. To my knowledge it isn't mentioned nor do i know if it was a sword he used in battle, but more for ceremony etc etc ...

Dawn, The Sword of the Mornings' blade was not Valryian steel, but it was a sword forged from a fallen star. Pale as milkglass and so sharp that it could cut through cloth by just touching it. Dawn was returned to House Dayne were it awaits a Dayne worthy of wielding it.
 
Eddard's party consisted of himself, Lord William Dustin, Theo Wull, Martyn Cassell, Ser Mark Ryswell, Ethan Glover (Brandon's squire), and the enigmatic Howland Reed.

I personally feel that Eddard did use Ice in war. What good is valyrian steel on above your wall? Much better in your hand.

Edit: All seven of these men were from the North. Retrieving Lyanna was personal to them.

I think it is telling that Robert did not accompany Eddard. Sure Robert and Eddard had a serious row and Robert had to deal with suddenly becoming king, but Lyanna was his fiancee. She was being held by henchmen of the man who kidnapped and raped her. Don't you think Robert should have gone to rescue her? I'll bet he was already getting familiar with the sluts of KL.
 
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I don't think anyone knew where she was until after Eddard lifted the siege of Storms End. Eddards' questions to the Kingsguard showed that perhaps he had not expected them to be there.
 
Not an important thing, but I just realized that maybe Lyanna didn't know about Roberts hatred for the Targs. I mean, she would have been shut up in the Tower of Joy with little contact I am assuming. Robert didnt hate anything with that much fervor until the rebellion and it was directed at Rhaegar mostly. Perhaps she mentions something about Rhaegars other two children to Eddard and he spills the beans about what happened to them at Kings Landing. She then begs Ned to not let that happen?
 
I thought I remember Ned hinting at the fact that Lyanna knew what type of man Robert was and thus wouldn't put up with his whoring. He seems like a pretty easy guy to read, quick to anger and quick to take up his hammer. Which was why Cersei was able to manipulate him so. Rhaegar sure knew to protect her with 3 of the best Kingsguard. They were likely on their way to Dorne, but a premature pregnancy caused them to pause at the Tower of Joy. I think she knew exactly what the consequences were, which was why *cough* she made Ned promise that certain promise...

Oh and it was technically the Lannisters who killed the babes, via Gregor. But yes regardless she knew that no targ could live to cast shadow over Robert's claim.
 
There is an outside chance that Lyanna did not know but my guess would be that she did know. Robert was "the big thing" back then so unless she went beyond the Wall, it would of been hard to escape news of what was going on and why and who was behind it.
 
Warning... If you've not read up through ADWD, if you don't want to know anything besides what was in Eddard's POV regarding Jon, if you don't want to waste your time reading my crackpot theory, if you detest an argument full of "What ifs?", and if you already are certain of the exact nature of Lyanna's relationship with Rhaegar, then please stop reading now.

In the discussion of Who's your favourite non-POV character?, Tywin, Keebs, and I got into Howland Reed, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Robb, Aemon, Aerys II, plus Eddard and Jon and how they all fit into Jon's parentage. I had a thought and I thought I'd get it into a proper thread so that TK-421 will know where to find it later. (I dunno how I got the research monkey off of my back and on to TK's, but I'm grateful. TK, I'll buy you a beer next time you come through Denver.)

You've probably seen my thoughts that the Mad King is Jon's father. But I'd not thought of it from Lyanna's point of view. Lyanna was at court... presumably as a lady in waiting to either Queen Rhaella, Princess Elia, or the infant Princess Rhaenys. She was a daughter of one of the great houses, after all. My theory is that Aerys II, the Mad King, developed a lust for Lyanna and that he took her by force. Then Rhaegar and Lyanna both disappeared while Brandon and Rickard died and Jon Arryn raised his banners in rebellion.

Would Aerys really do that? Well, Jaime remembers, in his second AFFC chapter, that Aerys forced himself upon Rhaella the night that he burned Connington's successor, Lord Chelsted. Jaime and Jon Darry were the Kingsguard protecting Aerys that night and Jaime heard Rhaella cry for help, but Darry told Jaime that it was Aerys' right. Dany was conceived that night. Rhaella left for Dragonstone a few days later. Rhaella died from complications due to birthing Dany.

Barristan confessed to Dany, in ADWD, that Aerys had a passion for Joanna Lannister before she married Tywin, back when she was a young lady at court. By all accounts Tywin and Aerys disliked each other heartily. Why did Aerys name Tywin as Hand when Tywin was only twenty years old? I belive it was to get Joanna back to court. My theory is that Aerys took Joanna by force when Tywin was out of town on business. Knowing that House Lannister would be exterminated if she revealed the rape, Joanna kept silence. Nine months later, Joanna died birthing Tyrion.

We know that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal. From Meera's story, we learn that Rhaegar respected Lyanna. But did he love her or lust after her? Barristan told Dany that Rhaegar was dutiful and diligent... and melancholy. Aemon told Sam that Rhaegar was studious and serious. Jaime remembered the last time he spoke with Rhaegar... Rhaegar told him to stay in KL and that Rhaegar would call a great council of nobles when Robert was defeated... in fact, Rhaegar conceded that he'd wanted to do it a long time ago, but had not. I suspect Rhaegar wanted to curb his father's power due to his paranoia, impetuousness, and predjudices. Knowing all this... Would Rhaegar have endangered the health of a fragile nation by raping or eloping to commit polygamy with the daughter of one of the great houses?

"Promise me, Ned." Lyanna died in a bed of blood and blue roses. Eddard returned north with her bones... and Jon.

Hey, Boaz! Get to the point already!

Ever since I read the R+L=J theory, back in 2004, I was convinced that the promise was to protect Jon. We know that Lyanna had a passion for defending the weak from their oppressors... remember Meera's story of the Crannogman at Harrenhal. Eddard told Arya that Lyanna had more than a touch of the wolfblood, a fearless spirit. But what if Aerys boasted to Lyanna of the other women who had been in his bed? What if he claimed to have fathered children upon other high born ladies? What if Lyanna drew the conclusion to include Tyrion? What if Lyanna drew the conclusion that baby Aegon was Aerys son and not his grandson? If Lyanna knew or surmised that there were other bastards of Aerys, would she not have asked Eddard to work to protect them from Robert's, Tywin's, Oberyn's, Randyll's, or others' wraths?

"Dear Ned. The king has fathered many bastards. Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Aegon, Lollys, Shae, Sam, Lynesse, Ashara, Gerold, Jon... don't let them be murdered in vengeance. Help them. Help Jon. Promise me, Ned."

Eddard remembered that Howland found him some time later silently mourning Lyanna. But what if Howland overheard the total confession and not just Eddard's explanation of how he was claiming Jon? Howland doubles in importance.
 
From what we've seen so far, mothers in ASOIAF tend to be hostile towards other children of the same father. Why would Lyanna be any different? We don't know anything about her character that can convince us that she'll at all care about the other children.
Other than the part about the promise I like your theory
 
Well Boaz, (I have missed your ramblings by the way!) much as I hate to admit it, your thoughts have merit. Aerys was insane, arrogant, all of the things you said. he took what he wanted. Taking any women he desired would not have been worth a second thought to him, his right of conquest as king. By right of birth even.

I don't doubt the possibility of Aegon being Aerys son but I do question that Rheagar knew it. He (going on assumed knowledge here) truly believed Aegon was TPTWP. I chose to go with the views of BFS and Connington on Rheagar, that he (like Ned) was a just and honorable man). Having said that, I can't see him going off to fight his father's battles instead of dealing with him himself in order to protect Aegon, as well as Elia, Lyanna and all the women he had hurt.

Pilpel, I think we have all the evidence we need to Lyanna's protective qualities. She protected Howland for sure. She-wolf says it all! She was the alpha female of her pack. In wolf kind this makes her THE boss and protector. The males, including the alpha male, only hold their positions because she allows it! While it is true that in a pack she may often prevent other females from breeding in order to improve the chances of her own, once cubs exist she protects them, all of them!

P.S. Catelyn does not count in this. She was not a wolf, by her own admission!
 
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I don't doubt the possibility of Aegon being Aerys son but I do question that
Rheagar knew it. He (going on assumed knowledge here) truly believed Aegon was
TPTWP.

I've forgotten all about this. Why did Rhaegar think Aegon was TPTWP?
 
This could go in a number of different threads, but I think this is the most appropriate. I was just reading the "Random Events" thread where boat made this comment:
we all know who Jon really is because Ned said the next time they saw each other, he would tell him about his mother.
We see much of Howland Reed's value in that he knows Jon's true parentage. And although Ned confided the truth to nobody, he did probably tell one "person" the truth. Winterfell's Heart Tree. That means that Bran will be able to learn the truth directly from Ned. What he will/can do with that information is another matter entirely. He could tell Jon (if he's alive), the wildings, Sansa, Theon...anyone who talks to a weirwood tree.
 
It is not just us who places value on Howland Reed. Ned knew something about him, some skill or ability that howland possesed. I doubt it was just that HR knows about Jon's parantage, though I am sure he does, and I also doubt that HR's value is just that he is good at keeping secrets, though again, he is.
 
Look, I know that this thread and this discussion are both old, but for some reason I feel compelled to add my bit.

I feel that it's likely that Lyanna asked Ned, yes, to protect Jon - from Robert, because Jon is not only a Stark but also a Targaryen. Here's why I think this is true.

Robert Baratheon was never known to be sympathetic with or merciful to any of the Targaryens, even innocent children. Lyanna did not seem to believe Robert to be an honorable man, as evidenced by her statements to Ned in regards to Robert's fidelity. With this in mind, assuming Lyanna was pregnant with the child of Rhaegar (or even Aerys), it only makes sense for her to fear for her unborn child, considering the fate of the other Targaryens at the hands of Robert the Usurper and his allies. Remaining at Dorne, with her guards (who were loyal to the Targaryens, even after it was known that the Targaryens no longer sat the Iron Throne) would definitely be a logical choice in this situation.

What I wonder is, why did the three charged with guarding Lyanna in the Tower of Joy continue to do so even after their king and prince had died? Why would they guard against a group including Ned Stark, Lyanna's own brother? Surely she would have nothing to fear from him. Even if they were determined to prevent Lyanna's return from Dorne, why bother after Rhaegar's death? The only answer I can seem to come up with is loyalty to the Targaryens, including an unborn Targaryen son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. They were no longer protecting only Lyanna, but her child.

Ned, along with Howland Reed and others, entered Dorne, fought some guards - and found Lyanna in a "bed of blood," slowly dying. I think it's unlikely that she was involved in the fighting, who of the kingsguard (or Ned's party) would have done violence to one they had been charged with the protection of? All signs point to a bloody childbirth, with her screaming in pain throughout the fight. Clichè, I know, but it fits. Furthermore, this sort of vagueness is not typical of GRRM, and raises red flags (at least in my mind) as to the significance of this event. Howland Reed now appears to be the only one living who was witness to these events - but let's not forget that he and Ned followed the old gods, and that Bran is watching through their eyes...



I'm now going to digress a bit, but there are a few facts (some oft-repeated) which also indicate (or at least vaguely support) Jon Snow as the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen.
First of all, it's often said that Arya, Jon, and Lyanna all resemble one another, in various permutations. (Jon and Arya have the "Stark" look, Lyanna has the "Stark" look, Arya resembles Lyanna, Jon resembles Lyanna, etc).

Jon Stark's birth date also seems to be very close to this time, and could easily be misrepresented by only a few months.

As for Wylla, Ned Stark does not seem like the type to "forget his honor," and Robert knows this, but projects his own lecherous personality onto Ned's past to justify this inconsistency. This subject makes Ned uncomfortable. Ned struggles with his promise to the dying Lyanna, much as an honorable man may struggle with promising to lie or misrepresent something. Thoughts of Robert exacerbate this particular internal struggle.

Additionally, "the dragon has three heads." In lieu of further revelation by the author, this sort of symbolism seems to point to the existence of three Targaryens. If not Daenerys, Aegon, and Jon, then who?

Other heraldic symbolism abounds in the series, some obvious, some less so - one example is finding the direwolf and the stag who have both killed one another. Not long after, Tywin Lannister kills and skins another stag with his own hands.
Ned Stark subsequently finds the truth, which leads to both the death of Robert and Ned at the hands of the Lannisters.
 
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