Not Happy

[Ser Cranky]

**** SPOILERS *****​

Just finished this thing Martin is calling the 4th book. I think he was too caught up watching football the past year and the advance deadline snuck up on him.

Let's start with the simple fact that this book is 2/3 the length of the previous volume, soon he will be charging a page at a time. Let's follow that up with the fact that it's 600+ pages of virtually no plot progression.

The only main character George has seen fit to advance in the story has been Cersei and he has made her stupid beyond all reason:

She has Osney smother the old High Septon but then doesn't attempt to influence the election of the new High Septon? The man elected as the High Septon shows up out of no where, she knows nothing about him. Then she allows him to rearm the church? In the world of violence Martin has created this action would be beyond stupid, especially since she has fought so hard for power and finally reached it. Then, having armed a fanatical force not under her control but in her capitol city, she proceeds to attempt to create a plot by using the High Septon to sit in judgement. Note she doesn't know anything about this man yet she places him center stage in her scheme.

Another far fetched scheme is revealed by the Prince of Dorne. It turns out he was hatching a plot with Viserys to get his revenge. Oh really? Is that why Viserys, mad as he was, was playing the beggar across the sea trying to get an army of men he detested all the while he had Dorne behind him?

It's clear that either Martin has no idea where to take this story or he is purposefully delaying the advancement of the plot for greater number of books and dollars. After all this time to release THIS is an insult to his fans worldwide.

 

[Lacedaemonian]

Just added a spoiler warning to your post mate. A pretty damning review mate. I aint read it yet but your arguments are convincing.

 

[Raven]

Ser Cranky (and you are ):

Let's start with the simple fact that this book is 2/3 the length of the previous volume, soon he will be charging a page at a time.

Don't follow you. This book is longer than AGOT or ACOK. Besides, do you rate books by length? Why not just review them with a set of scales, then?

Let's follow that up with the fact that it's 600+ pages of virtually no plot progression.

What? The plot progresses more in this book than it does in ASOS. Aemon's last words have more plot progression in one page than there is in any ten chapters of ASOS. To name but one example: the book is filled with plot progression! The only part that arguably doesn't advance the plot is Brienne's chapters.

The only main character George has seen fit to advance in the story has been Cersei and he has made her stupid beyond all reason

No, he's continued to portray her as inadequate, insane, and yes, a bit stupid - just as she has been consistently described throughout by Tyrion, LF, Varys, Tywin... this is what Cersei has always been like. This is the woman who insisted on removing Joff from the defence of the city, who kidnapped the wrong whore in an attempt to blackmail Tyrion, who was against the Tommen-Margaery match...

Is that why Viserys, mad as he was, was playing the beggar across the sea trying to get an army of men he detested all the while he had Dorne behind him?

Yeah, it is.

Read the Dorne chapters again. Doran is quite explicit about the fact that Dorne does not have anything like the strength to conquer the Seven Kingdoms alone. Viserys needed more.

An outstanding question from AGOT was why Viserys should imagine that ten thousand Dothraki were anything like enough to win back his kingdom. This now makes sense. Neither the Dornish or the Dothraki were enough, on their own, to even attempt it. But together...

It's clear that either Martin has no idea where to take this story or he is purposefully delaying the advancement of the plot for greater number of books and dollars. After all this time to release THIS is an insult to his fans worldwide.

It seems strange, then, that it took him all this time to release this shoddy product? If he wasn't bothered and was only after the cash, why not release it two years ago? Why insist on waiting until the thing was completed? Delays result in less money, not more.

In a joint interview with Ray Feist, about a year ago, George commented that it was finishing the book that was giving him trouble. Ray joked that he should just write 'to be continued...' and send it to the printers.

He could have done that once he reached 800 ms pages. The publishers would have been happy with a book that length, the fans would have bought it, and his dollars would have rolled in (not that he needs them).

Instead, George continued to write and rewrite, only agreeing to the split once the book was actually too large to print in one volume and would likely have had to have been split into three for paperback! And even then, against the publisher's advice, he insisted on a split he felt (though you may disagree) better served the story, potentially at the risk of losing sales to people who only buy the stories for Jon, Dany or Tyrion.

I'll listen to other criticisms of this book, but the idea that it is a purposeful attempt to make more money out of the fans is bizarre - and an insult to those of us who think this book is a worthy addition to the series.

 

[rune]

It always interests me to see how different people percieve things. Books I feel are a good point I have only read the first book in this series so cannot comment on this book. I would say that generally I've found Martin's other works to be well written. However, I will say I felt this series was very detailed and slow - plot wise. I was quite disappointed in this because I find I cant stay engaged with that kind of story.
Perhaps that's what has happened here for Ser Cranky.

 

[Culhwch]

Firstly, I'll second everything Raven has said, as I could never say it so eloquently or with such thoroughness...



But at one point you mention :-

She has Osney smother the old High Septon but then doesn't attempt to influence the election of the new High Septon? The man elected as the High Septon shows up out of no where, she knows nothing about him.

Cersei did try and influence the selection. There was numerous mentions in her earlier PoVs discussing who would be the better candidate and how she would go about installing him. However, the new High Septon more or less staged a coup, with the Sparrows forcing him onto the faith.

Then she allows him to rearm the church? In the world of violence Martin has created this action would be beyond stupid, especially since she has fought so hard for power and finally reached it.

Yeah, that's more or less the point. She isn't half the ruler she thinks she is. She is ignorant of history. She couldn't see the threat that would have been blindingly obvious to Kevan or Jaime, had they held the regency.

Then, having armed a fanatical force not under her control but in her capitol city, she proceeds to attempt to create a plot by using the High Septon to sit in judgement. Note she doesn't know anything about this man yet she places him center stage in her scheme.

She knows that he is very pious. She knows that he is so devoted to the Faith that he will prosecute Margaery to his full powers. She doesn't figure that that piety will reach so far as to have Osney whipped till he breaks down and confesses everything.

 

[The Blackfish]

She knows that he is very pious. She knows that he is so devoted to the Faith that he will prosecute Margaery to his full powers. She doesn't figure that that piety will reach so far as to have Osney whipped till he breaks down and confesses everything.

And this, I think, Is Cersei's biggest problem. She is so wrapped up in her own world of jealousy, hate, and most of all fear (of the prophecy she recieved as a little girl) that she cannot think things through logically.
Through her very revealing POV the reader is now exposed to her driving ambition to defeat this prophecy, an ambition which is sadly warping and blinding her to the true state of affairs.

Poor Cersei is going to get a very rude shock when Dany lands on the shores of Westeros .... ha ha I can hardly wait!

 

[asdar]

I'm not one of these "love everything GRRM" writes fans but I have to disagree with you completely both in your overall criticism and every single criticism you've written.

Sam Progressed so much in this book, he attacked another man, he's betrayed his oath and slept with Gilly, He's met the mage and become entangled in the politics of the Maesters and set his feet on becoming a maester himself.

Arya is an assassin, I felt that he perfectly inserted her into the training and I love every word from her PoV. To me Arya has been wonderful throughout the books but this goes back to the focus that I thought she had with Syrio in AGoT.

Margaery finally gets some development, and the Dorne chapters were awesome. The Prince with his gout and the Capt. I don't see how you could not enjoy those chapters or feel that any development went on there.

I won't mention Cersei except to say that I felt that was his best writing yet. I HATE Cersei with a passion, and I feel she's a stupid, willful, spoiled woman that's going to get hers soon, but totally consistent in the story and very well developed.

Even Brienne, who I've always had a problem with was developed more. The whole Pod thing and getting caught by un-cat was so exciting. Who didn't cringe when biter took a bite out of her cheek?

Not only did this book develop characters while maintaining excitement it set up so much more development. Sam, Sansa and Arya are all in training. Even if they don't have any direct PoV's in A Dance of Dragons when they come out the other side it will be as Arya, the faceless man, Sam the Maester and Sansa the political manipulator.

 

[Boaz]

Poor Cersei is going to get a very rude shock when Dany lands on the shores of Westeros

Assuming she lives that long.

Imo, Cersei really works hard when fighting Ned, Tyrion, Stannis, or other highborn opponents. She vastly underestimates anyone of common birth.

One of my fears about AFFC was that the Cersei POV would make me start to like her as her brother's POV's made me like them. Martin did not disappoint me in this... I hate her still.

Ser Cranky, I feel for you. That the book has not lived up to your expectations after four plus years is not good. There was only one battle. No kings were killed. None of the main characters was murdered. No Others. Nor Direwolves. No Dragons. Yet, some characters were much more fully developed... Jaime, Brienne, Sansa, Doran, Sam, Gilly, Kevan, Arya, Cersei, Margaery, Qyburn, Bronn, Euron, Victarion, Aeron, the Reader, and even Varys and Jon. Raven's point on Aemon's interpretation of the prophecy regarding the Prince that was Promised is very revealing. But Gregor, Sandor, Beric, Davos, and Brienne may be dead... or not. Myrcella has been disfigured. Arys is slain. Randyll Tarly is marching on KL (he is the Roose Bolton of the south). Marwyn (may be evil), Victarion, Quentyn, and perhaps Tyrion and Varys are all racing to find Dany. Some imposter is now infiltrated the Maesters. Some characters seem marked for imminent death... Edmure, Lancel, the Kettleblacks, Doran, Robert Arryn, and Mance. The south is enduring a church reformation to set them against Stannis just when he needs them to fight the Other. I felt caught up in the storyline, and I enjoyed it.

 

[Ser Cranky]

OK, good discussion. Let me address a couple things just to clarify my position, hopefully you guys can keep an open mind:

Several of you point out that Cersei is a bad ruler, her family has always known this it's not surprising that she continues to make mistakes. Fine, but the situation here is beyond all reason. To whomever said she tried to influence the election but couldn't, what? If she can have the old High Septon killed then she can install the new one. She is paranoid about her rule and security, yes she is stupid I get it, but there is no way she arms a fanatical mob in her own city over which she has no control. It just doesn't work for me, sorry.

Sam was advanced? Sam is on a boat, Gilly is crying. Sam is on a boat, Gilly is crying. Sam is in an inn, Gilly is crying. Sam sleeps with Gilly, she stops crying. Sam finally arrives in Oldtown and in the last two pages of all his chapters a new character called "The Mage" is introduced who advances the plot, nice.

Aemon is old, Aemon is dying, he is old, he is dying, he is cold, he is dying. Sam goes to docks, finds out about dragons, Aemon has an epiphany out of the blue, he's dead.

Another one I like is Baelish plot line, this guy must have used the Jedi Mind Trick on the vale lords. The vale lords - "Hey, we don't like you". Baelish - "Yes, you do". The vale lords - "Maybe we do". I mean what was that? None of them can see this? Did they all attend the Cersei stupid school?

Finally, regarding my comment on the page count. My point wasn't that I judge books by their length, I was simply pointing out that Martin's commentary regarding the length of the book didn't make sence in light of the fact that the previous book is almost 50% longer then this one. Meaning he certainly could have included a heck of a lot more chapters, he didn't for one simple reason, they aren't ready. How long can an author leave a series hanging before it becomes irrelevant? How long will a publisher wait before asking for the advance back? George doesn't need money? Then why does he make all those appearances? He needs money, it's always about the money. That's ok as long as we get the product we want, this time I didn't but I'm glad the rest of you did.

 

[cacotopos]

It's quite disparaging* how relentlessly cynical you are.

*Or maybe I mean dissapointing

 

[asdar]

You can simplify Lord of the Rings by saying, "Bilbo finds Ring, Frodo destroys ring," too but that doesn't show the whole story.

If you only want to say that there was no development then you can but you're ignoring the fact that Sam did a lot in this book. Even as you're trying to simplify it you're showing up a lot of the changes.

Sam did get on a boat, he went to two completely new lands and the voyage was very descriptive and enjoyable to me. I liked that it was shown as difficult personally and liked the story. Sam did sleep with Gilly which is a huge development, both in the fact that he broke oath and that he found someone who sees the bravery in him. Most vital to the story in my opinion is that he knows about Dany and how she's somehow important to the world.

Those are big developments in the story and important. If you don't like those developments that's cool but they are developments. I can't tell you how excited I am to see a main character in training to become a Maester. I want to know what those guys do and what kind of magic they possess.

The page count, like was said was high, if not as high as ASoS then so what, it's still more than most novels and if we get the 2nd half next year it seems it'll be a great deal of pages.

I've said something about the time to write this book before but I think it bears mentioning again. He wrote the books at 2 years 2 years 2 years and then there's one 5 year gap. He had a reason why it took 5 years and that's because after struggling for two years he decided he needed to start over because his intended timeline wasn't working. Then the book got too large and he had to split it in half. I'll be shocked if his next books don't come in at 2 years or less each.

 

[Ser Cranky]

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I'm simply hoping you concider my opinion and either agree or disagree with it. LOTR is a different subject, I'm not sure how it's relevent here.

I don't believe I'm being cynical. I'm not just saying: "I don't like the book so meh ". I am giving very specific reasons why I don't like the book, obviously most of you seemed to have enjoyed it and that's great.

For all the reasons I have stated before, it simply feels that Martin stretched this book to 600+ pages with most of the main characters missing and the others moving sideways with several notable exceptions. After waiting this long, the book does not deliver. Again, just my opinion.

 

[ChasenFate]

I am pleased so far with what I have read. I am almost to page 300. I do wish it had more POV's. I am also glad that Martin doesn't have a birthday wizard i.e. Gandolf. Anyway, I am happy, and to those who aren't pleased, I feel the same way about Robert Jordan. I loved his first books 1-5 (maybe a little more than that it has been so long since I read any) I finally have to give up around book 7 or 8. It just didn't do anything. Some people write for the fans and others write because they have a story to tell and do it their way.

 

[Boaz]

On the topic of series, the continuing plot, and the author's ultimate aim with story... I also am cynical of all other series besides Lord Of The Rings. Tolkien finished the story before one page was published. The reason it was a series is that the publisher was afraid no one would plunk down money for two thousand pages of fantasy.

Fantasy series that I have experience in are Brooks' Shanarra (some of you have read my posts on this), Burroughs Tarzan and Mars tales, Feist's Riftwar, Le Guin's Earthsea, Mc Caffrey's (sp?) Pern, Lewis's Narnia and Space Trilogy, Tolkien's Middle-earth, McKiernan's Dark Tower (some of you may have read my posts on this also), Alexander's Prydain, Weis and Hickman's Dragonlance, and Edding's Belgariad.

I must say that Tolkien stands above the others in the respect that he had a finished story before the public saw any of it. Lewis, Alexander, and Le Guin all put together cohesive series because they knew the whole story even though it was not written down when they first started publishing (or at least that's the feeling I get from their works). Martin's ASOIAF seems to be in this same category to me. With his prophecies and dreams from even the first book, I think he knows very well how the story goes even if it's not yet written down. Mc Caffrey seems like she knew where she was going at least through her first three books. But Burroughs (I love John Carter), Feist, Eddings, Brooks, and Weis and Hickman all seem to keep trying to milk their cash cows long after the cream of the story had gone sour.

This is a gamble that readers take... they hope the author has a real story behind the first novel and not just a formula to make money.

If this is how Ser Cranky feels, well, I hope he just cuts his losses and moves on the the next author.

But regarding Cersei, she assumes too many things. She assumes that she can control all common folk with little or no effort. She assumes that now that she is in control, she'll easily stay in control. When Cersei looks a problem, she is able to see only one side (sometimes two) at a time. When the problem is like a coin, she seems to have handle on it. When the problem is like a multifaceted diamond, she is lost with the many sides to try and look at simultaneously.

I feel Sam grew emotionally, psychologically, romantically, physically, socially, and perhaps spiritually as well.

Emotionally and Psychologically, he led his master, a woman, and a babe on a long journey. He put their fears and concerns above his own and he was able to verbalize their needs to others. He really starts to explore the prospect of being a man instead of a frightened child.

Romantically and Socially, he explores his own desires as a man. He learns to let others know of his feelings. Yes, he was somewhat pushed into this.

Physically, he starts to enjoy physical labor. He does not shirk or outwardly complain of the excercise. He sheds some weight and feels good about it.

Spiritually, He's far from his gods. He questions all of his oaths and many beliefs instead of blindly following someone's orders.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Sam. But he is learning to speak, act, and think for himself as well as stand up for what's right (sometimes). I don't like Aemon or Gilly either, but they were integral parts of the Sam story.

I like Jaime... a lot. I hated him up until he got his hand chopped off. If his intellect can grow to match his courage... look out. If his desire to serve the kingdom ever matched his desire to be a giant #$%*... look out.

I do agree with Ser Cranky in the fact that some of the book does not feel as polished as other parts. Littlefinger's domination of the Lords Declarant does seem a bit simplistic to me. Jon's outwitting Stannis with Aemon, Dalla's baby, and his letter to the Iron Throne was done very quick, perhaps we'll get a deeper glimpse in Jon's POV. Asha's and Victarion's appeals at the Kingsmoot also appeared to be rushed, imo. And the overall rise of the fervency of the Faith among the commoners seemed to come from nowhere. But I enjoyed it all.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I'm still reading, actually I'm on page 329. But in response to all of the gripes that have been posted so far (and I've skimmed past the unmarked spoilers), all I have to say is "Boo hoo." I think he's done a fine job so far. There is character development, it's just not spelled out for us. We have to think about it, and follow the story closely. I like it. I'm tired of books that read like movies.

 

[ChasenFate]

Hear, Hear!

 

[Raven]

Ser C: If she can have the old High Septon killed then she can install the new one.

Well, no actually. She can't, and this is the whole point. Killing the old High Septon was easy (and stupid). All she needed was a flunky with no qualms, and they're not in short supply.

Influencing the election of the new one required some nous, of which Cersei is short. She assumed things would go as they always had, not realising that the process would be short-circuited, because she simply didn't see the sparrows as a threat. This is characteristic of her: she never views the commons as a threat, in any form. She always ignores them.

Same applies to arming the Faith. She simply doesn't see armed commoners as a threat, and assumes that arming the noble order means nothing because they were (individually) armed anyway. She can't adapt to thinking of new threats: all her threat perceptions are attuned to the nobility. She's trapped in old patterns of thinking, which is stupid, of course, but means that she thinks she has control of the mob, because she controls the court, and the court controls everything. Which up until now was true...

Aemon has an epiphany out of the blue

Ah, but it wasn't out of the blue, and this is the key bit. It reveals that Rhaegar had consulted Aemon over the prophecy of the Prince who was Promised, so Aemon has been considering the matter for the better part of two decades. He lacked only one key bit of information, which Sam provides.

Another one I like is Baelish plot line, this guy must have used the Jedi Mind Trick on the vale lords. The vale lords - "Hey, we don't like you". Baelish - "Yes, you do". The vale lords - "Maybe we do". I mean what was that? None of them can see this? Did they all attend the Cersei stupid school?

At least two of them do see through the trick, but decide to go along with it, partly because they are forced to by appearances (Corbray was supposed to be on their side, so when he draws steel, it shows them up. The only thing they can do is denounce him as LF's catspaw - with no proof, which will simply make them look stupid).

But also, of course, because they have another option: Harry the Heir. Royce plans to marry his daughter to Harry, remember? This explains why he gives in - he has a plan B. He doesn't know (how could he?) that LF knows this and intends to hijack it.

My point wasn't that I judge books by their length, I was simply pointing out that Martin's commentary regarding the length of the book didn't make sence in light of the fact that the previous book is almost 50% longer then this one. Meaning he certainly could have included a heck of a lot more chapters, he didn't for one simple reason, they aren't ready.

OK:

1. If he had included any more chapters, the PB would have to be split as with ASOS. Plus, it would not make sense to include (say) half the Dany chapters in AFFC, thematically or structurally.

2. He has a lot more chapters ready to be published. Three of them have been published already, and at least six more on top of those have been read to audiences at cons. ADWD is 50% finished in MS form, with a good deal more in draft form and most of the rest in outline.

3. Did you grouse about the length of AGOT? It's shorter, he could have included more chapters in that, right?

Boaz: well, GRRM has said he'd ideally like to wait and publish the whole thing when it's finished, but this, I'm afraid, is where money does come into it: as he's a professional writer, he needed to publish.

Tbh, I have the distinct impression that finances no longer dictate that, given the phenomenal success of the first three books. But imagine the outcry if he said 'no more until I'm finished'.

Oh, and Ser C: anyone who thinks that George makes appearances for money is being rather naive. Cons don't pay enough for anyone to make a living appearing at them. You're lucky if you get accommodation and travel costs covered, even as a guest. George goes to cons because he loves cons, which is obvious to anyone who's seen him drink fans twenty years his junior under the table then get up for a reading next day...

 

[Ser Cranky]

You make a solid arguement Raven. I'd like to point out a couple things, see how it ties in. I believe Martin establishes in the first three books that martial prowess and "might makes right" are fully prevalent in his world, true?

So that being said, let's look at your position:


"""Another one I like is Baelish plot line, this guy must have used the Jedi Mind Trick on the vale lords. The vale lords - "Hey, we don't like you". Baelish - "Yes, you do". The vale lords - "Maybe we do". I mean what was that? None of them can see this? Did they all attend the Cersei stupid school?

At least two of them do see through the trick, but decide to go along with it, partly because they are forced to by appearances (Corbray was supposed to be on their side, so when he draws steel, it shows them up. The only thing they can do is denounce him as LF's catspaw - with no proof, which will simply make them look stupid).

But also, of course, because they have another option: Harry the Heir. Royce plans to marry his daughter to Harry, remember? This explains why he gives in - he has a plan B. He doesn't know (how could he?) that LF knows this and intends to hijack it."""



So, you are Yohn Royce. You have the army gathered to force the resolution you wish but you don't go forward because you "are forced by appearances". This makes sence to you? I can't buy it. The whole Harry the Heir thing is completely unbelievable as well. We are talking about the Lordship of one of the great houses, the nobles would know to the xxx number who is in line for what.

I also don't buy your arguement regarding Cersei, she has managed to deceive her father and husband about her affair with Jamie. She has managed to remove Robert, to remove Eddard Stark, to reach power. She has made huge mistakes, no doubt about it. However, the level of stupidity we are asked to believe here seems just too far fetched.

Raven it's obvious you enjoyed the book and feel it's well thought out and developed, I just happen to disagree. Not every best seller is a great book or even a good one, in this case the first three books are great so the momentum is there for the rest of the series I'm sure. I wonder what your opinion would be if you had picked up this book as a stand alone, missing early plot lines nonwithstanding...

 

[Sword of the Morning]

I also don't buy your arguement regarding Cersei, she has managed to deceive her father and husband about her affair with Jamie. She has managed to remove Robert, to remove Eddard Stark, to reach power. She has made huge mistakes, no doubt about it. However, the level of stupidity we are asked to believe here seems just too far fetched.
Raven it's obvious you enjoyed the book and feel it's well thought out and developed, I just happen to disagree. Not every best seller is a great book or even a good one, in this case the first three books are great so the momentum is there for the rest of the series I'm sure. I wonder what your opinion would be if you had picked up this book as a stand alone, missing early plot lines nonwithstanding...

Removing Robert was not that difficult. Ned is a different stroy. But Cersei just thinks of herself as the best out there in the game. She thinks no one else can cook up plots. That is her flaw. She thinks getting rid of the debt owned to the faith is a great value then rearming the faith. Funny to say Cersei is becoming more like Robert, drinking rather heavily and horing. How many partners has that lovely psycho lioness had?

 

[Raven]

Ser C: I'd like to point out a couple things, see how it ties in. I believe Martin establishes in the first three books that martial prowess and "might makes right" are fully prevalent in his world, true?

False.

If 'might made right' and that was the end of the story, no-one would be condemning Frey for breaking guest right. No-one would care whether Joff was a *******. No-one would care whether Stannis worshipped the Red God. No-one would care whether Stannis had a better claim than Renly.

Renly is the one person who claims that 'might makes right': he says he has the army, and that's all he needs. Yet even he doesn't adopt this position until forced to. He initially wants to replace Cersei with Marge, then shifts to seizing Joff and ruling through him.

What George establishes in the first three books is what Varys outlines in his riddle to Tyrion: power lies where men think it lies.

In this context, Royce has assembled a coalition of lords (which he doesn't rule, by the way: it is a coalition, he can't command any of the others, nor issue unilateral orders to the troops) on the perception that power has been seized by LF, and that this seizure is suspicious and may be illegitimate. It's this perception of illegitimacy that matters, not LF's lack of force to back it up. The Lords Declarant use the threat of force (not force) to back this up. They are also, however, claiming the moral high ground to do the same.

But Corbray's actions rob them of their moral legitimacy. The staged scene means that any attempt to use force to seize power will now result in the Lords Declarant being seen as illegitimate, rather than LF. They will be rebels. And this will make ruling through Robert impossible. They will have undermined their own authority.

Still, of course, Royce might have tried to force the issue - if he hadn't had a plan B, like I say.

This scene is an elegant acting-out of Varys' riddle. The Lords Declarant arrive thinking they have the power, and LF robs them of it by shifting the focus of power from the sword to the moral right.

The whole Harry the Heir thing is completely unbelievable as well. We are talking about the Lordship of one of the great houses, the nobles would know to the xxx number who is in line for what.

Not sure of your point here. The nobles do know that, all of them. The only person who doesn't is Sansa. What Royce thinks LF doesn't know is that he plans to marry his daughter to Harry, and therefore claim the Vale once Robert dies.

I also don't buy your arguement regarding Cersei, she has managed to deceive her father and husband about her affair with Jamie.

But not her brother, her uncle, Ned, Robert Arryn, Stannis, Varys, LF, or a whole list of others. And worse, she doesn't realise that some of them know until too late.

Deceiving Robert wasn't too hard, and Tywin was in denial rather than being fooled.

She has managed to remove Robert, to remove Eddard Stark, to reach power.

It took her years to remove Robert. She had LF's help in removing Ned. And she doesn't reach power, only come by it by default, once Tywin dies. Until this time her attempts to seize control have been pretty ineffectual. She was simply brushed aside by Tywin, for example.

I wonder what your opinion would be if you had picked up this book as a stand alone, missing early plot lines nonwithstanding...

Impossible to say, really. I suspect it probably is a bad introduction to the series plotwise, I'll give you that much: but the writing within is good enough that I think it would have grabbed my attention. The scenes and characters are superb.