Not Happy

[Culhwch]

I'd be interested to see what your thoughts are after a reread, Ser C., if you can bring yourself to do it. AFfC came across, to me at least, as such a layered book that I feel I will be picking up nuances for two or three or eight rereads to come. Just the things I missed and were brought to attention on these forums is astounding, and make the whole picture much clearer (or foggier, depending on the circumstance).

There is one thing I can agree with you on, though:

Not every best seller is a great book or even a good one...

Amen to that [coughFeistcoughDanBrowncough]. But I have found that the general consensus to Feast is that it's a worthy addition to the series. Never gonna please everyone, though....

 

[asdar]

I don't know why you're dwelling on arming the church so much as a stupid act by Cersei. It turns out to be stupid but at first glance, in a drunken stupor it looks pretty darn attractive.

It protects the common people from criminals without costing a penny and she doesn't have to do a thing but say yes.

We knew it'd be bad, especially if your read spoilers, but at first glance and in a time of great crisis it looks like a golden ring, especially if you didn't know the cost of having an armed clergy from history.

 

[Culhwch]

....especially if you didn't know the cost of having an armed clergy from history.

Which is exactly the point Martin is driving home. 'To know not what happened before you were born is to remain a child forever,' said Cicero. If you fail to heed history, you're doomed to repeat its mistakes. Everyone but Cersei can see what a foolish mistake it would be, yet she can't because she is far too self-absorbed in her delusions of control.

 

[RWHamel]

But also, of course, because they have another option: Harry the Heir. Royce plans to marry his daughter to Harry, remember? This explains why he gives in - he has a plan B. He doesn't know (how could he?) that LF knows this and intends to hijack it."""

And I see this as 100% wrong. This is plan A. Bronze Yohn doesn't get up to the Eyrie, and suddenly has an epiphaney about this. This is why he's there. He can put the Eyrie under siege until Winter, and they can all starve up there, because Robert Arryn is a sickly little boy who is not going to live to long anyway. They might all shed a tear for Robert, because of their past loyalty of Jon Arryn, and they might go up to the Eyrie to allow Baelish one last chance, but that's about it. Well worth getting rid of Petyr Baelish, if it means Robert dies a little sooner.

What happens when they get up there? He prance's Alayne Stone out in front of all of them. What does Sansa think? He will know me. How could he not? What does Bronze Yohn say? "Do I know you, girl?" Shazam, Bronze Yohn backs down.

 

[The Blackfish]

I also don't buy your arguement regarding Cersei, she has managed to deceive her father and husband about her affair with Jamie. She has managed to remove Robert, to remove Eddard Stark, to reach power. She has made huge mistakes, no doubt about it. However, the level of stupidity we are asked to believe here seems just too far fetched.

This is something that you have consistently said throughout this thead, yet I think you fail to understand that where emotion is involved, people are not logical and can be blind to obvious truth. Cersei has succeded through intelligent thinking in certain areas, and yet because all her motivation comes as a response to her personal past, she is blind to issues that do not revolve around her. Put simply, she is an incredibly selfish and narcisistic woman who is losing touch with reality.

You may never have met anyone like this Ser Cranky, but there are people in this world who are intellectual geniuses, and yet have absolutely zero social skills. Their level of intelligence actually becomes a barrier to normal human interaction. I see Cersei as being a bit like this, minus the genius part. What appears obvious and logical to anyone else is not considered by Cersei, because it does not revolve around her.

Also consider Julius Ceaser, Rome's invincible general and brilliant tactician who was brought down not by his enemies but by his closest friend, Brutus. I am not familiar with the details of the story but my point is this - while Ceaser was vigilant against enemies far from him, his self-importance and perceived invincibility blinded him to the possibility of betrayel.

Perhaps Cersei is not so much intellectually stupid as she is stupidly blind. If it helps, Ser Cranky, think of her as being emotionally and relationally handicapped.

 

[Raven]

RWHamel: an interesting interpretation. You think that Royce did recognise Sansa?

I'm assuming the Lords Declarant is plan A because I'm assuming that a) otherwise Royce does not have the support of the others and b) that he is more loyal to Robert than to have plan A be removing him. But if you're right, then Royce is looking for an excuse for the Lords Declarant to back down, so that he can go ahead with the Harry marriage, right? And if he recognised Sansa, he is forewarned that LF may have a way to short-circuit that plan? Could get interesting...

 

[Boaz]

A couple observations...

I think the Lords Declarant also expected Littlefinger (little better than a commoner in their eyes) would not have the stomach to stand up to them. They did not expect him to call their bluff and risk civil war in The Vale.

The place to look, when trying to find clues of Cersei's ineptness at ruling, is directly at Joffrey's rule. Sure Joff was about 13 when he became king, but not all his decisions were merely childish. He was cruel (hiring an assassin to kill Bran), lustful (looking at Sansa's breasts), self-centered (ordering the Hound to attack the crowd), petty (punishing Sansa for Robb's offenses), charming (he knew how to look the part), arrogant (conatatly claiming to defeat Robb, Stannis, and Renly), blood thirsty (ordering Ned's execution), and ignorant (refusing to learn from Tyrion). Joff was more like Cersei than Myrcella and Tommen... in fact, I think that Cersei saw herself inJoff... she wanted to be a man and she worked hard to make Joff the man she could never be.

PS - How could Baelish arrange Harry the Heir's marriage to Alayne? He must've paid the Waynwoods with something costly or he let them in on Alayne's identity. I don't think the heir to the Vale would marry the ******* girl of a hedge noble, no matter how beautiful she is.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I love the idea of Royce recognising Sansa - that would explain why he backed down so 'easily' and, as he was one of the major players, the minor ones felt the wind change.

It could be Littlefinger is more devious than we thought and used Sansa as a tempter for Royce to 'betray' his companions - after all, although in disarry, the legitimate heir to the North is a powerful bargaining chip.

 

[RWHamel]

RWHamel: an interesting interpretation. You think that Royce did recognise Sansa?

I'm assuming the Lords Declarant is plan A because I'm assuming that a) otherwise Royce does not have the support of the others and b) that he is more loyal to Robert than to have plan A be removing him. But if you're right, then Royce is looking for an excuse for the Lords Declarant to back down, so that he can go ahead with the Harry marriage, right? And if he recognised Sansa, he is forewarned that LF may have a way to short-circuit that plan? Could get interesting...

Well, that all depends on if Bronze Yohn's values and motivations are similar to Petyr Baelish's. I'm sure Baelish would frame it so, and most likely thinks that anyone who doesn't share his outlook are fools.

I have always gotten the impression during the middle ages that besides the material gain and/or alliance that might result from these marriages, they also looked for suitable blood lines to cross breed. Almost like race horses. I got the feeling that that's why the Queen of Thorns was so interested in obtaining Sansa for her Willas. I mean she was probably breeding and cross breeding roses most of her life, both literally and metaphorically.

As breeding stock, (I'm sorry if this seems crass.) Sansa is perfect. She is the true born daughter of House Tully and House Stark. Both Houses being traditional allies to the Vale. Her mother had three sons, and two daughters. Really important in a society that worrys about heirs and inheritance. Bronze Yohn may view Sansa as being far more suitable for Harry the Heir to restore House Arryn. It all depends on what Bronze Yohn thinks.

 

[RWHamel]

PS - How could Baelish arrange Harry the Heir's marriage to Alayne? He must've paid the Waynwoods with something costly or he let them in on Alayne's identity. I don't think the heir to the Vale would marry the ******* girl of a hedge noble, no matter how beautiful she is.

Exactly! A confirmation of this, is what Catelyn Stark thought about Mya Stone marrying Mychel Redfort in AGoT.

She sounded so like Sansa, so happy and innocent with her dreams. Catelyn smiled, but the smile was tinged with sadness. The Redforts were an old name in the Vale, she knew, with the blood of the First Men in their veins. His love she might be, but no Redfort would ever wed a *******. His family would arrange a more suitable match for him, to a Corbray or a Waynwood or a Royce, or perhaps a daughter of some greater house outside the Vale. If Mychel Redfort laid with this girl at all, it would be on the wrong side of the sheet.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I'm taking great care not to read this thread, as I have AFFC coming for Christmas...but it's been mentioned to me that the debate here may be getting a little heated.

Just try to ensure that if you're going to disagree, you can disgree with civility.

 

[Ser Cranky]

Brian, I hope that's not on my account. I believe the discussion has been very civil, just because participants aren't in agreement doesn't mean it's heated.



Regarding Yohn Royce recognizing Sansa, I can't see that becoming a major plot line. My reasoning is this: Sansa is the key to the North, I think that's pretty clear now. We are heading into the fifth book, by this time all players in the "Game of Thrones" should be on the battlefield so to speak. I don't believe for a second that LF is going to let Sansa get away from him, he is in love with her and he loves power, she is a key to both ends of his asperation. There may be some interesting byplay between Royce and LF for the control of the Vale but in the end Baelish is the player in that plot line.

 

[ChasenFate]

Does anyone know when the next book will come out? I know he said half or close to half is done. Just wondering how much longer we will have to wait. I have missed a few POV's that aren't in Feast. Otherwise I am pretty pleased with the book. Oh yea, everything is Eddards fault, if he would have just stayed in the north .

 

[asdar]

I think in one year. I don't think it's been heated, very civil I think, I hope I didn't turn any heat up.

I hope Sansa is important because she's my favorite character but I think Jon is destined to be leader of the North.

Hmmm, a twisted thought went through my head, very twisted and I apologize for it.

R+L=J, then Jon and Sansa aren't siblings.

S+J sitting in a tree? Cousins would be bad to us too, but in Westeros that'd be practically strangers.

 

[ChasenFate]

Kissing cousins?! You do make an interesting point. Jerry Lee Lewis did it. Why not a couple of fictional characters?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Asdar: Sansa's your favourite character? Really? There's some good stuff in her PoV, but that's mainly because she's inside the 'circle of power' at Kings Landing and so see's a lot of things behind the scenes.
I still haven't made up my mind who my favourite character is (it was Ned! *grumble, grumble... )

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I don't think it's been heated, very civil I think, I hope I didn't turn any heat up..

I think Brian may be referring to the rather childish and defensive reaction I initially had to this thread. For that, I apologize (although I'm still digging this book!)

R+L=J, then Jon and Sansa aren't siblings.

S+J sitting in a tree? Cousins would be bad to us too, but in Westeros that'd be practically strangers.

I always thought that Arya and Jon would be more likely. That is, if Jon were to put aside his vows, which I think will not happen.

However, I did not have a chance to read this weekend, nor did I have nearly enough time last week. I am only on page 490. So, if there's something I'm missing I really could be dead wrong.

 

[Cssndra]

Well, I have to say...I felt that this book was rushed.

Simply, Cersei going bonkers wasn't convincing for me. If it was meant to be grief driven (Joff, Daddy, losing brother/lover), and fueled by a descent to alcoholism....I'm not buying it. Her inner monologue is incredibly selfish, and she has never stricken me as someone to be driven mad by drink/grief. More likely, she is being poisoned. At least, I hope she is. I hope she dies of the bloody flux.

I am begining to warm to Jamie and his little redemption arc - SOS was the best book for him. He went from being a caricature to having some flesh, so to speak. He will never be the man his father was (and, as others have alluded to, perhaps he's not the child of Tywin's flesh); he'll be a better man, put his sister aside, and work towards throwing off his so famous moniker. Totally see that arc, indeed, love it. And...well, I'd still do him...

Poor Arya never gets a freaking break.

I wonder, are Catelyn and Berric types of Others? No blue eyes, but does the same kind of magic animate them both? I mean, it is obviously magic and not some kind of rapture-y thing (thoughts?).

In terms of criticism, I do stand by my original statement. You can completely tell that this book was hacked and stacked to make the two novels. It's a pity we have to wait a year for the next book (and a shame that the "chapter" on amazon is from the next book and not FFC). The pace is too fast, and some of the character dev feels.....short.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I think Brian may be referring to the rather childish and defensive reaction I initially had to this thread. For that, I apologize (although I'm still digging this book!)

Don't sweat it AU. I think the Big Man just thought things might spiral beyond literary debate into personal attacks. It's a credit to this group that I never personally felt that would happen.

 

[Cssndra]

Beg to differ, but LF isn't in love with Sansa, he's in love with the idea of somehow obtaining payback for his earlier perceived rejections. She's the ideal of nobility that he will never be able to attain, and can only buy. Nobility conferred is less than nobility inherited?