What's up with the Catelyn hatin'? (spoilers)

[Culhwch]

Brian: true, much of Cat's story in ACOK and ASOS (though by no means all) is there to provide a POV in certain locations. But you can say the same of Arya in ASOS, for example, or Brienne in AFFC. And Cat is active in those events. She frees Jaime in Riverrun, which would be the biggest example, but even with Renly she rescues Brienne.

Plus she captured Tyrion, which more or less kickstarted everything. If she doesn't do this: Jaime doesn't confront Ned in the streets then flee to the west and join with Tywin in massing a host. Tyrion doesn't, well, do everything that he does after escaping the Vale, acts too numerous to list. Robb doesn't call his banners in preparation for a war that likely would not have come otherwise. Robert doesn't get pissed with it all an embark on an ill-fated hunt.

I think she has a bigger role than you give her credit for, Brian. I've never really followed your argument that she is just a spectator...

 

[Dolorous Edd]

Plus she captured Tyrion, which more or less kickstarted everything. If she doesn't do this: Jaime doesn't confront Ned in the streets then flee to the west and join with Tywin in massing a host. Tyrion doesn't, well, do everything that he does after escaping the Vale, acts too numerous to list. Robb doesn't call his banners in preparation for a war that likely would not have come otherwise. Robert doesn't get pissed with it all an embark on an ill-fated hunt.

I think she has a bigger role than you give her credit for, Brian. I've never really followed your argument that she is just a spectator...

^^^ See, it's ALL HER FAULT !!!


/me wanders off muttering "stupid bitch"

 

[Raven]

Steeler: well, Thoros refused to try resurrecting Cat because it was too late, and that was only a few days after. So I'm guessing yes, it's too late.

DE: of course, had Cat not arrested Tyrion, Jaime would not have attacked Ned, he'd have gone to deal with the Mountain himself, and then Ned would have died in Beric's place. So in a way she saved Ned's life there.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Brian. I've never really followed your argument that she is just a spectator...

No worries - my personal opinion - but it is only that.

dwndrgn has given me a slapping a few times for being wrong.

 

[Dolorous Edd]

DE: of course, had Cat not arrested Tyrion, Jaime would not have attacked Ned, he'd have gone to deal with the Mountain himself, and then Ned would have died in Beric's place. So in a way she saved Ned's life there.

Yes, but had he died, thoros (assuming he was part of the party, which he could well have been) would have resurected him, ned would be invincible, he'd have kicked cersei's arse, told robb to go back to playing with toy soldiers, slapped catelyn a couple of times for nearly starting world war 3 and told robert to get off his fat arse and run his own damn kingdom.

 

[Raven]

Great. Now I have a mental image of Ned as the Black Knight. "I'm invincible!" "You're a loony..."

 

[Lubbock]

Plus she captured Tyrion, which more or less kickstarted everything. If she doesn't do this: Jaime doesn't confront Ned in the streets then flee to the west and join with Tywin in massing a host. Tyrion doesn't, well, do everything that he does after escaping the Vale, acts too numerous to list. Robb doesn't call his banners in preparation for a war that likely would not have come otherwise. Robert doesn't get pissed with it all an embark on an ill-fated hunt.

I think she has a bigger role than you give her credit for, Brian. I've never really followed your argument that she is just a spectator...

hehe ill admit never thought of that, she was the tiny spark that set the whole series of events in motion that we still read about. Now im stuck thinking of what would happen if she hadnt arrested Tyrion, quite interresting to think about. Should keep me entertained for a couple of minutes...

 

[Thessaly]

hehe ill admit never thought of that, she was the tiny spark that set the whole series of events in motion that we still read about. Now im stuck thinking of what would happen if she hadnt arrested Tyrion, quite interresting to think about. Should keep me entertained for a couple of minutes...

Thing is, we could extend the what-ifs right back to Bran climbing on the roof: had he not been caught spying on Jaime and Cersei, there would be no defenestration, no need to send an assassin to kill him, no reason for Catelyn to suspect and arrest Tyrion for the attempted murder of her son, and antagonise the Lannisters. Since Catelyn repeatedly told Bran not to climb on the walls of Winterfell, the fault resides firmly with little Bran (or Jaime and Cersei for committing incest in the first place...) and not with Catelyn at all; indeed, had Bran listened to his sensible mother he'd have been fine! Admittedly, the shadow of Lysa's letter about Jon Arryn's murder still raises the spectre of eventual conflict, but Catelyn is sound enough to admit her sister can be erratic, and doesn't seem too hasty to move against the Lannisters until she is forced to take Tyrion to a safe haven.

I fully recognise that this kind of blame game is tenuous, but only because the case against Catelyn is just as tenuous if we choose to disregard the personal accountability of all characters in favour of laying all the blame with one scapegoat. I don't blame any one person for the North's current predicament, but if I had to choose someone to be made responsible, I definitely wouldn't pick Catelyn.

(PS: please don't ridicule me just yet, I haven't made 18 posts!)

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Good news Thessaly, we cant call you an idiot til after yer 18th post....bad news....I own a thesaurus. <insert smartalecky smiley here>

I love all this what-if thinking. At the end of the day, we have to lay the responsibility for all people...theres just too many people to blame in this book. Aerys killed the two elder Starks which precipitated the whole dang thing....only he was crazy, so can we blame him?

There are soooo many villians in this series which are doing theyre damndest to be evil, why the heck are we taking the time to blame Catelyn for trying to do good? Her actions weren't the brightest, but she had goals in mind which were above reproach. She had the man who hired assasins for her son arrested....she attempted to get her two daughters back by releasing a POW.....she went south to warn her husband when a messenger would have sufficed (like Rodrick Cassel...he woulda done the trick)....At the end of the day we can hate her but should we? She meant well each and every time....

 

[Boaz]

Thessaly, words are made to describe things, especially common things. Now, think about the fact that there actually is a word for tossing someone from a window. There's not a latin word for dying on the toilet is there?... um, how about lavatoriumexpiratus? There's not a word for having your head replaced with a wolf's is there?... does capolupusrestitution make sense? Egg's not the only one who can make up words. The fact that our forefathers invented the word defenestration is kind of scary.

She meant well each and every time....

Arianne meant well by kidnapping Myrcella and fomenting rebellion. Dany meant well by letting Mirri Maz Duur kill Drogo. Jorah meant well by taking Dany into the tent. Lancel meant well by servicing Cersei. Lancel also meant well by confessing this to the High Septon. Jon meant well by running away. Jon meant well by killing Qhorin. Jon meant well by misleading Ygritte. Jon meant well by going to assassinate Mance. Jon meant well by sending Dareon as a recruiter. Robb meant well by betraying Walder Frey. Ned meant well by not telling Robert the hard truth. Ned meant well by refusing Renly's help. Ned meant well by writing to Stannis. Ned meant well by trusting Littlefinger. Ned meant well by warning Cersei. Sansa meant well by warning Cersei. Robert meant well by being an adulterous, drunken, whoring, murderous, obese, abusive, ungrateful lout. Stannis meant well by closing his eyes to murder. I think I could come up with more "She meant well" comments for Catelyn than any other character.

You know what they say about the road to hell...

I could sum up Catelyn's life in one word... Oops!

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

All salient points Boaz, but thats not the argument I was making.

Catelyn is not to blame for the Lannister Usurption or the Baratheon Blunders or whatever you want to call it. There are so many people to point the finger at that, at least point the finger at people who acted maliciously. I think at the end of the day, intentions do matter. Quote all the parables you want, thats what I think.

 

[Boaz]

I know what argument you were making... I was playing the part of a demagogue in order to sway people's emotions and foment more Catelyn Hatin'.

I don't want truth. I don't want reality. I just want to be the last word on this topic.

Instead of waiting until their 18th post, I want you telling the newcomers upon entering my presence, "Remember thou art mortal. Remember thou art mortal."

 

[LaDonte]

It isn’t a crime to not welcome someone into your arms. It isn’t a crime to not love someone. However, being a witch to someone for all of their life without referrence to something they themselves did...As to the question: What's up with the Catelyn hatin'? Here’s my answer.


I would like to start off with a positive. The positive is that Catelyn does have likeable qualities. She is smart, a good councelor, has great inner stregnth and gives good tough love in hard times. However, the problem is that, though the good was pretty good, it was never enough to truly outweigh the negatives.

Part 1: How She Treats Jon​

• When somone has shown you nothing but respect for their entire life and is loving to and beloved by your children and you can’t even summon the decency to show that person basic politeness, it is a HUGE failing in your character. The fact that she is said to not even be able to be polite to him infront of her young children is downright dispicable.
• ”It should have been you.”
• She has been mean to him all of his life without a reference to any misdeed that he himself has commited.
• If you have a problem with him because he is the ”symbol (gag)” of your husband’s (believed) infidelity, be angry at the husband. Why be good to the one who (supposedly) commited the deed and be a witch to the one who wasn’t even born when (supposed) deed took place?
• There is a big difference between ”not welcoming someone with open arms” and treating a respectful child like a criminal all the days of his life.
• She has been speading slander against Jon for years to those outside of Winterfell, telling them that he is treacherous. Though her reports are lies and don’t make referrence to specific actions, those that have never met Jon take her word for it based on their respect for her.
• The icing on the cake: She lies and tells outsiders that he is treacherous and he lies and tells people that she is nice!

Part 2: Now That She’s Lady Stoneheart, She’s Even Worse​

1. First off, I sympathise with her condition, losses and believed losses. However, her present condition didn’t cause her to become mean. She was mean and upady when her life was a bed of roses.
2. The fact that they have made her their leader for whatever reason and it is likely that they will never give anyone a fair trial any time soon. Reasoning for hanging Podric: ”he may have killed someone in the war.” If Podric and Brieene’s actions merit hanging, possibly all of the characters deserve to be hung.
3. Brienne risked life and limb for her and her daughters only to end up on the wrong side of a rope.

 

[The Black Sword]

I always liked Cat in the first three books. She wasn't perfect, but then who is in GRRM's world? There are far worse people: Cersei, Biter, Rorge, Freys, etc. I only started hating her near the end of book 4 when she hangs Pod and Brienne. In my opinion, Pod and Brienne >>> Cat so she has no right to be mean to them. I mean, Brienne is on a quest to save her daughter for goodness sake! That to me is unforgivable.

 

[Man of the North]

I am not totally against Cat. She has done some things that are good, like freeing Brienne and counsel Robb when he needed it.

But she also is the cause for the lot of the messes that has happened to House Stark.
-If she treated Jon with more respect, he would be still in Winterfall instead of on the wall.
-If she didn't trust Littlefinger, she would have left Tryion alone.
-If she didn't have Tryion arrested, Jamie wouldn't have hurt Ned.
-If she didn't let Jamie go free, Robb would not have to kill Karstark for murder.
-If she didn't force Robb to make a deal with the Freys, there would be no Red Wedding.

Cat has made far more mistakes then any other character in the book, in my opinion. Cersei isn't intelligent enough or was too arrogant to realise what she had done. Cat has made intelligent desicions, and GRRM protrayed her as intelligent. So why did she make all these foolish choices knowing the outcome she wanted to happen didn't have much chance of happenning?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

But she also is the cause for the lot of the messes that has happened to House Stark.
-If she treated Jon with more respect, he would be still in Winterfall instead of on the wall.
-If she didn't trust Littlefinger, she would have left Tryion alone.
-If she didn't have Tryion arrested, Jamie wouldn't have hurt Ned.
-If she didn't let Jamie go free, Robb would not have to kill Karstark for murder.
-If she didn't force Robb to make a deal with the Freys, there would be no Red Wedding.

Whoa there. I would say you just woke the sleeping lion or something but that would make me a Lannister, and I cant be....I mean I have a sister I have absolutely no desire to sleep with, and Im not a dwarf....however I am a megalomaniac that is getting fatter so maybe Im Cersei...

Anyhow lets break this down...

Cat treated Jon like crap because of the way Ned dealt with it. Because he was such a stonewall about Jon, Cat was threatened by Jon's claim to Winterfell and this nameless woman. Im not saying its right, but circumstances made them enemies, not Cats personality.

Of course Cat trusted Littlefinger. Heck we the reader trusted Littlefinger at that point in the story. This is a childhood friend that she remembered fondly telling her that the Dwarf had her newly crippled son attacked by an assassin. Seriously, what would anyone here have done? I applaud her actions there, applaud. She was face to face with someone she thought tried to kill her 8 year old son....and had him arrested to face trial. I would have killed him. And for the record we have no idea that Petyr had become this manipulative, scheming person at this point.

Catelyn did not cause Karstark to kill a POW. Lets not dissemble. Karstark did what he did, there is no reason strong enough to kill a prisoner of any stripe, much less youths that did nothing to you. Laying this on Catelyn is like blaming Hitlers piano teacher for Auschwitz. Makes no sense....

Force Robb to treat with Lord Frey? Explain to me what Robbs choices were at that point? Go home, lay siege to the Towers, or come to terms with Walder is how I remember it. This was the only move that allowed Robb to accomplish his goals...this was a shining moment for her in my opinion.

You do have a point about her treatment of Jon. I acknowledge that. I think Jon always had to go to the wall. With the way he'd been at Winterfell his whole childhood he was a threat to Robbs claim. I know I know, people will say "but that would never happen." I think from a practical point of view Jon would have best served everyones interests on the wall.

Anyhow...enjoy and welcome to your first argument.....hee

 

[TK-421]

I think Ageon you give her too much credit, where none is due. I'm no big fan of Cat but I did enjoy her POV because of the story it told.

 

[devilsgrin]

I am not totally against Cat. She has done some things that are good, like freeing Brienne and counsel Robb when he needed it.

But she also is the cause for the lot of the messes that has happened to House Stark.
-If she treated Jon with more respect, he would be still in Winterfall instead of on the wall.
-If she didn't trust Littlefinger, she would have left Tryion alone.
-If she didn't have Tryion arrested, Jamie wouldn't have hurt Ned.
-If she didn't let Jamie go free, Robb would not have to kill Karstark for murder.
-If she didn't force Robb to make a deal with the Freys, there would be no Red Wedding.

Cat has made far more mistakes then any other character in the book, in my opinion. Cersei isn't intelligent enough or was too arrogant to realise what she had done. Cat has made intelligent desicions, and GRRM protrayed her as intelligent. So why did she make all these foolish choices knowing the outcome she wanted to happen didn't have much chance of happenning?

Had Robb not made the deal with the Frey's, he would have lost half (at least) of his army taking The Twins... That was Cat's brightest moment. - a moment of sheer political brilliance. Blame Robb for the Red Wedding! He broke his word, and shattered his honour with jayne westerling...

Catelyn didn't make foolish decisions - in her mind - she made desperate ones. Arresting Tyrion was completely understandable - if you were her, what would you have done... in fact, thats the question i'll pose to all the Catelyn haters...

If you were in her position, with the knowledge SHE had, and the education/upbringing she'd had... What would you have done in her place?

The Jon thing is one of her few dark spots... and again, from her perspective... a Stark-looking child, as capable in all things as Robb, would be a SERIOUS threat to her children and their inheritance...

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I think Ageon you give her too much credit, where none is due. I'm no big fan of Cat but I did enjoy her POV because of the story it told.

Well TK, and I mean this with all the mock sincerity I can muster, if you would kindly point out to me where Im heaping the credit upon her unduly I would be glad to rethink my position.

 

[TK-421]

I think if I ignore your request long enough, you'll go away.

I never said Cat was stupid but to equate her advice to strategic and military brilliance is going too far. She had some common sense and Robb valued her counsel but look where that got him in the end.

Anyway, I just don't like the stone-hearted b#tch.