What's up with the Catelyn hatin'? (spoilers)

[Boaz]

I think Ageon you give her too much credit, where none is due. I'm no big fan of Cat but I did enjoy her POV because of the story it told.

Tremendous distinction, TK. I really liked her chapters. Through her eyes we saw her children, her husband, the wolves, the North, King's Landing, Littlefinger, Ser Rodrick, Varys, Tyrion, the Mountains of the Moon, the Vale, the Eyrie, the Blackfish, Lysa, little Lord Robert, Moat Cailin, the Twins, Lord Walder, Riverrun, Edmure, Hoster, Jaime, Brienne, the Reach, Renly, Loras, Stannis, and all of Robb's bannermen. And through the first two books, Catelyn's perspectives on Robb, Jaime, Lysa, Walder, Riverrun, the Twins, and the Eyrie are all we have. Along with Dany, Tyrion, and Arya, Catelyn gives more perspective on various locations than any of the other characters.

I'm on the record as not liking Catelyn, Jon, Sam, Sansa, and Cersei. Also, I find myself not thrilled with Eddard, Arya, Davos, and Daenerys. While I don't love any of these characters, I have thouroughly enjoyed their chapters.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I think if I ignore your request long enough, you'll go away.

I never said Cat was stupid but to equate her advice to strategic and military brilliance is going too far. She had some common sense and Robb valued her counsel but look where that got him in the end.

Anyway, I just don't like the stone-hearted b#tch.

Ahh, well theres your mistake. That strategy doesnt work on me....my wife tried it on me once....once.

Im not really arguing that Cat is brilliant. It just seems like most of the Catelyn bashing is based on her being the cause of everything that went wrong. The Ned bashing as well, but thats another matter.

The common sense argument is one Id been putting forth in regards to Dany. Its not that she's brilliant (Cat too) its that people around her seem so dumb. I guess Jon would fall into that category as well.

So enjoy your dislike of Cat. As long as its based in personal disgust, and not some misplaced sense of her responsibility.

 

[vervain_ashe]

Actually, I respect and like her character. Plus, there's just something wicked cool about resurrecting from the dead to enact vengeance!

 

[Jaqen]

I'm on the record as not liking Catelyn, Jon, Sam, Sansa, and Cersei. Also, I find myself not thrilled with Eddard, Arya, Davos, and Daenerys. While I don't love any of these characters, I have thouroughly enjoyed their chapters.

Wow, I'm shocked. I can't believe you list Jon and Arya in there. The rest of the characters I can understand (even though I like several of them for the most part), Eddard, and most of the time, Dany), but them two? Why not? I'm hoping that Jon and Arya end up married or simply just ruling together by the end of the series. Hehe. Them two have had a great relationship from the beginning...

But yeah, I can't really stand Catelyn either. I do enjoy her POVs though, for the most part. She's just so bitchy, whiny, and snotty. Course, she had reason to be this way but still, those traits aren't admirable.

 

[Boaz]

Jaqen, Jon is the proto-typical young, humble, semi-reluctant hero predestined to save the universe that I've seen a million times before. He's been done to death already. Frodo Baggins, Harry Potter, Shea Ohmsford, Belgarion, Pug/Melamber, Rand al'Thor, Tuck Underbank, Taran Assistant Pig-Keeper, Prince Caspian, Paul/Muad'Dib/Usul, Lord Kalvan, John Carter and many others fall into this category. Other hallmarks of this character are friends who are loyal to their deaths, beautiful women who see through the heroe's self-doubt, his assuming leadership at an absurdly young age, and an arch-villian who is blinded to the heroe's weaknesses. Jon, to me, is a walking cliche. Now his friendship with Tyrion, his meeting of Aemon Targaryen, his attempt to run away and his dalliance with Ygritte are the four interesting things about Jon. Qhorin's execution was predictable, the continual slaps on the wrists he receives from Benjen, Jeor, Qhorin, Donal, and Alliser are laughable. Catelyn's spite was beyond obvious as a means of generating sympathy for him (I'm not saying it did not work, 'cuz it did... just saying it was obvious). On the other hand, his POV really introduces Tyrion, the Wall, the Night's Watch and it's issues, the Wildlings, the disastrous Great Ranging, the Others, Maester Aemon, Dolorous Edd, and Mance's assault. Jon's POV is exciting, he is not.

Regarding Arya... even in fantasy, how many short, skinny, nine year old girls have killed eight or nine men? Sure she lives in extraordinary times and has been in numerous impossible bloody situations, but really... come on, throw me a bone here. Arya has become a pre-teen mass murderer... Just let that sink in. Now think, is she still somewhat normal? Is she psychologically functional? Yes she is... and I don't think she'll develop from here on out normally... In fact, I'm flabbergasted that she can even function at all. In my opinion, her rage should come through as her default emotion. I'd love to have a specialist in Child Psychology read Arya's POV's and give us some feedback. I think she will never throw off the yoke of the Faceless Men. She'll always be a stone cold killer. She'll never be able to undo all the years of murdering to survive and become Lady Stark.

For the record, I don't like Jon, but I do like Arya... I'm just not overly fascinated with her. I don't find myself wondering what will happen to Arya as much as I wonder what information I'll be able to glean from her POV.

Just like Jon's POV's, I love the story that Arya's POV's tell. From her perspective we really get to the nitty gritty of the war and it's effects upon the inhabitants. Rape, murder, rage, revenge, barbarism, and sadism are shown as the norm rather than gold crowns, white cloaks, feasts, and stirring speeches. We glimpse two of Robert's bastards, we continue to know the Hound, we are introduced to Jaqen and the Faceless Men, and we view the willfulness of Lyanna mirrored in Arya.

 

[Koopa]

There are many reasons why people could hate/dislike Catelyn.
I agree with them, but mostly i dislike her because of the way GRRM depicts her. She is always whining, complaining, thinking her not-so-clever thoughts.
She is like Ganoes Paran in Erikson's work. He too is always complaining, and thinking worthless thoughts again and again and again, never something new, never something surprising, ....

They both are seen as good people and liked by those around them, but i can't stand them. It is saying much that in Erikson's work the only character i dislike more is felisin, she is even worse, always whining about her bigger sister.

Catelyn is one if not the greatest character i dislike. I like Cersei a lot better, at least she is interesting. To catelyn interesting things happen, BUT she herself in not.

 

[vervain_ashe]

Well, BOAZ, at nine, I was, yet had no sword to speak of, but truly could have been if sword in hand, been Arya Stark. In fact, according to GRRM, our features were not unalike... Not everyone that grows up in the USA has a picture perfect life. Ah, but if only I could have had a brother like Jon Snow. Instead, I inherited the Tyrion's and Jamie's of society. They all disgust me. I have become a free spirit to roam the realm. I could be Stoneheart. How wicked cool is that?!

 

[TK-421]

Who wants to be an undead zombie?? Me! Oh, pick me! Please! Next thing you'll know it will also be "wicked cool" to have a girlfriend like Ygritte...

 

[vervain_ashe]

Now I have to say, I did not care much for Ygritte's character. The part of Cat's resurrection that I enjoyed most was that the author even went there in the first place. It was a neat twist is all.

 

[cape_royds]

Catelyn, like her brother Edmure, is a Tully through and through.

The Tullys aren't stupid, but they're easily moved to make bad decisions out of sheer sentiment. Duty, Honour, Family.

Duty and Honour made Catelyn urge Ned to become Hand.

Family made Catelyn kidnap Tyrion, and also made her free Jaime.

 

[Shacklock]

People who say she is stupid, well in GoT she act pretty cleverly when capturin Tyrion, by forcing the soldiers of her father's bannermen to support her and fooling Tyrion into thinking they're going to Winterfall. Through out the whole thing she acts like a desperate mother which is fair enough. 'cept the whole Jon thing, I mean to be fair she and Ned wernt even properly together at the time he was born. By properly I mean in Love, they were just together out of duty e.t.c

 

[Stark Winter]

But seeing that her family's words are Duty, Honor, Family she probably believed that even though they weren't in love, it was his duty to be honorable to her.

 

[Boaz]

Shack, Welcome.

I don't think I've said Catelyn is stupid. I don't like her. I think she's incredibly selfish. I think she's made many bad decisions. But she's not stupid.

As you said, her capture of Tyrion and escaping of Lannister riders was very clever. Her trip to KL by ship was smart. Her quick thinking in Renly's tent saved her's, Brienne's and her men's lives. Her influence led Robb to give command of his foot to Roose... this one started well, but ended badly. She quickly negotiated an alliance with Walder Frey. She also was influential in bringing the Blackfish to Robb's cause. She also cleverly obtained Jaime's oath to free Sansa and Arya. Even dead, she seems to have some diabolical plan to obliterate the Freys and to free Riverrun.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Boaz and Catelyn sitting in a tree....K...I...S...S... I...N...G...

Im not going to rehash the Catelyn thing. Ive done it so much I actually annoy myself now with my Catelyn stances....

But at least we agree shes not stupid

 

[TK-421]

...so was Robb a Tully through and through as well?

 

[Koopa]

Boaz and Catelyn sitting in a tree....K...I...S...S... I...N...G...

Im not going to rehash the Catelyn thing. Ive done it so much I actually annoy myself now with my Catelyn stances....

But at least we agree shes not stupid

That and the fact that everyone wants to sit in a tree with Catelyn (she is depicted as beeing a looker), as long as she doesn't talk anyways.

I thought about it, and i was wrong, there is no way i could sit in a tree with a person i dislike.

 

[cape_royds]

...so was Robb a Tully through and through as well?

That's a good question.

GRRM takes pains to tell us that Robb has the Tully physiognomy.

Family had Robb call the banners and march south once his father had been imprisoned and his grandfather's lands attacked.

But the Starks would do the same thing--that's how Brandon and Lord Rickard bought the farm.

Honour is why he shortened the Karstark, but Robb definitely forgot his Duty with regard to the Frey alliance.

So I don't know. But I do think that Catelyn typifies the Tully motto. And while she finds frequent fault with her brother, she exhibits some of the same sentimentality.


Off-topic, I don't quite get all the Frey-hating. The only thing the Freys did wrong was violate guest-right.

As with the Rat Cook, murdering people for vengeance and honour is fine with the Gods, but just don't do it after the bread and salt have been served!

 

[Koopa]

I still dont get why he marched south. Would it not have been a wiser action to declare independance and stay in the North all safe behind the neck. He should have left the Riverlands and the whole south alone.

I guess emotions made him do crazy things.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Because it wasnt a war of revolution, it was a war of vengeance. The blood of the North was spilt by treachery...and the hand that wielded the knife belonged to the Lannisters. Robbs bannermen were men of action and their liege lord was just beheaded. There were far more "Greatjon Umbers" amongst Robbs followers than "Roose Boltons"

Riverrun also declared loyalty to him through his mother. He couldnt leave them to burn, thats not the way of the north. His bannermen would have found that reprehensible as well.

International politics is a slippery slope...so is intranational I guess....


And on the topic of Walder Frey....

He is reviled, not hated....the reasons are as plentiful as his loins....he was opportunistic and disloyal (witness his actions during Roberts Rebellion and when Robb came south) lecherous, treacherous, prickly, and ugly. Its the ugly that gets me.......I hate ugly people....cept Boaz

 

[Koopa]

Exactly Aegon, his silly emtotions made him do crazy things.
It would have been wiser to declare independance (and bassically war) with the South, stayed in the North, and let the Southerners fend for themselves.

regardless of how his bannerman felt, I do not see how any of them would have challenged him if he had not gone to aid the Riverlands. That was one of the worst decisions he could've made.