What's up with the Catelyn hatin'? (spoilers)

[Boaz]

When Robb called the Banners and marched south, his lord father was still alive. It was not until after the Whispering Wood, iirc, that Robb received word of Eddard's execution... even the Greatjon would not have proclaimed Robb king while Lord Eddard was alive.

Robb went to war to secure Eddard's release, to assist the Arryns and Tullys against Lannister aggression, and to put Stark and Tully friendly counselors on the Small Council. This meant Ned as Hand, the Kingslayer hanged, Littlefinger and Janos sent to the Wall, and Lord Tywin sent back to the Rock to pay indemnity to Riverrun. Robb did not know of his father's knowledge of Stannis' claim. If Robb had won, then he would have had to execute Joffrey, Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, Tyrion, Tommen, and Myrcella. Robb would have had then turned on Renly and killed him and all the Tyrells in the name of King Stannis.

If Robb had declared independence and not gone south, then he would have basically proclaimed himself an ungrateful son. Most, if not all of the northern lords had marched with Ned, not once but twice, to war. They'd bled for him and he for them. They'd never have allowed Robb to abandon his father... i.e. Roose would have said, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" even sooner.

Is Robb a Tully or a Stark? He looks like a Tully, but he smells like a Stark to me.
Family, Honor, Duty may be the Tully words, but they apply to all the major houses, even the Lannisters... though the Lannisters may twist the meanings.

Lord Rickard and Brandon both went south for family and honor. And both died. Ned went south for family, honor, and duty. Lyanna went south for duty... first for her duty to family, then mayhaps for duty to the prophecy.

Benjen went north for family (getting out of Eddard's way), duty, and honor.

Winter is Coming. Robb was too young to know how true this is.

When Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna, and Benjen went south to the great tourney at Harrenhal they were also too young to know the harsh truth of the Stark words. They all found out soon enough... as all summer children do.

Robb clearly idolized his father and strove to emulate him. Robb's best friend was Jon, his ******* brother. So if Eddard could break his vows once and something good actually came of it, then why not Robb?

In fairness to Robb, he and his siblings were raised just like his father and his siblings. They thought the world was grand and wonderful... until the snow falls.

My criticsims of Catelyn stem from her self-centeredness that she called duty. In the name of duty she continually abandoned those who needed her desperately... though in fairness, she did face easy choices. In the name of honor, Robb married Jeyne. In the name of honor, Robb excluded Edmure from his plans and thus doomed his entire war effort. In the name of honor, Robb released Theon. In the name of honor Robb executed Rickard. In the name of honor, Robb exposed himself to Walder.

His list of mistakes is as long as Catelyn's. But he continally made his father's mistakes, not his mother's. I think Robb was a Stark.

What are the main qualities of Starks? They die young.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Boazie Boaz Boaz....nobility and sacrifice are not bad things. Why do people condemn Robbs decision when he made them fully knowing the results. He understood why the Karstarks had to die, and the results of killing them but he did it because it was right....he knew what Freys reaction to his nuptials would be and married Jeyne anyhow because it was right...he enjoyed Walders grace and made his apologies because it was right. Lets not forget Robb was a teenager. By their very nature teenagers are idealists. Maybe with a little seasoning Robb would learn to temper his idealism with practicality .

Yes Robb got himself killed by being noble, but I daresay if there were a few more Robbs out there maybe Westeros wouldnt be at war....The main qualities of the Starks are nobility and honor in the face of people who are not. They are the foils that the Lannisters and Freys of this world fail to compare favorably to and in the end are mistaken if they think that by being alive at the end they have won.

 

[lauren20062001]

But Robb also didn't have Catelyn killed. I know that she is his mother, but she did commit treason. She chose her daughters over her king and Robb pardoned her.

 

[Apopas]

But Robb also didn't have Catelyn killed. I know that she is his mother, but she did commit treason. She chose her daughters over her king and Robb pardoned her.

I think we have to blame for that his young age. He wasn't a man yet, he needed his mother. It wouldn't be possible for him to order his execution. I believe if Eddard was in his position he would have executed Catelyn (that would be the most delectable event ever imo ).

What I can't forgive Catelyn about is the fact that she released Jaime to take back her children but she did never think, Lord Karstark's children who (like this) died vainly for her son. Imo Rickard Karstark was one of the most tragic figures in this war and all these because of Catelyn.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Hello everyone! I'm a little new around here, so don't bash my ideas just yet!

I don't think Robb could ever have Catelyn killed. But I also don't think that she should have ever given him the chance to make that choice. She knew what she was doing when she released Jaime, and she knew the consequences, and she didn't care. And not only about the consequences to herself, but to others by letting Jaime go. I also think she didn't believe Robb would have her killed either.

 

[devilsgrin]

Catelyn didn't simply choose her daughters over her king. She chose his heirs over a hostage. She chose her daughters over a hostage. She behaved rashly yes, but she acted as would any mother seeing an opportunity to get her children back.
I certainly doubt Eddard would have executed her either. He may have chastised her, but he wouldn't have killed her. Theres treason and then theres treason.
Never-the-less she did made the wrong choice in hindsight.

Lord Karstark is in no way the same. He brutally murdered unarmed, sleeping children out of blind vengeance, while his own sons in the least were slain in honourable (if completely outmatched) combat. he was a weak man, he committed the most heinous of crimes, and he deserved to be executed. he didn't even attack them alone iirc... he took help - pathetic.

 

[Thessaly]

I don't think Robb ever would have had Catelyn killed (nobody is as reviled as a kinslayer after all), and I really don't think Eddard would have done either. As a husband, he also swore an oath to his wife upon marrying her; spouses are bound with the same feudal ties as liege and vassal. Having your wife killed is a dishonourable act that I doubt Lord Eddard - to his credit - ever would have considered.

Whilst Catelyn releasing Jaime may not have been the best plan as far as politics go, she was thinking of her daughters, and desperately wanted their release. She was helpless to prevent the deaths (to her knowledge) of Bran and Rickon and seems to believe that at least she may be able to prevent the same fate happening to her daughters. I applaud her for doing all she believed she could do as an individual in securing their release.

After all, it is later proved that Jaime intends to keep his word and return her daughters (by sending Brienne and Oathkeeper to find and help them). I don't have any children so I can't truly empathise with Catelyn here, but as a daughter, I know that my mother would do anything she could to save me were I in Sansa/Arya's position. I agree that Catelyn probably didn't care too much about the potential consequences of her actions at the time, but I don't condemn her for that - many characters don't consider the consequences of the crimes they commit with far less honourable intentions, and are not condemned half as much as Cat, for wanting to protect her children.

Catelyn is not acting selfishly; she wants her daughters safe and returned home for their sakes more than hers (she knows she faces charges of treason and almost certain imprisonment as a repurcussion of her actions). The release of Jaime is only a half-chance but she had to take it.

 

[Apopas]

I don't think Robb ever would have had Catelyn killed (nobody is as reviled as a kinslayer after all), and I really don't think Eddard would have done either. As a husband, he also swore an oath to his wife upon marrying her; spouses are bound with the same feudal ties as liege and vassal. Having your wife killed is a dishonourable act that I doubt Lord Eddard - to his credit - ever would have considered.

Accept a wife who committed high treason and didn't respect the people who died for her, is equally dishonourable...

Whilst Catelyn releasing Jaime may not have been the best plan as far as politics go, she was thinking of her daughters, and desperately wanted their release. She was helpless to prevent the deaths (to her knowledge) of Bran and Rickon and seems to believe that at least she may be able to prevent the same fate happening to her daughters. I applaud her for doing all she believed she could do as an individual in securing their release.

She wanted her children safe yes. That was the reason she did whatever she did. So? Everyone does something for a reason. The matter always is how far we can go to achieve our goals. At first glance her goal was totally right and honorable but if we see her actions in depth we will see a woman who didn't hesitate to endanger hundreds of other souls (because yes Jaime was responsible for a lot of deaths and probably he would commit a lot of other killings after his release) and who didn't care for the other parents who sent their children to the war, to protect her son and finally die. No! That's the highest level of ingratitude.

After all, it is later proved that Jaime intends to keep his word and return her daughters (by sending Brienne and Oathkeeper to find and help them). I don't have any children so I can't truly empathise with Catelyn here, but as a daughter, I know that my mother would do anything she could to save me were I in Sansa/Arya's position. I agree that Catelyn probably didn't care too much about the potential consequences of her actions at the time, but I don't condemn her for that - many characters don't consider the consequences of the crimes they commit with far less honourable intentions, and are not condemned half as much as Cat, for wanting to protect her children.

The fact that many characters don't consider the consequences of the crimes they commit do not justify Catelyn's actions at all. Simply it adds Catelyn to the same list as well because she commited an absolute crime. If I was in Arya's position, probably my mother would do the same, I repeat probably, but after that me and she would be embarrassment to face the people, because we acted just for our own profit and did bad to the realm.
The ancient Spartan mothers weren't lesser mothers than Catelyn and the others and I'm sure their loved their sons as much. But they said to their children to return with their shield or die with it. Were they wrong? I don't think so. They honored the people who were willing to die for their sons and expected the same from their blood in return.
I admire and respect such a mother!

Catelyn is not acting selfishly; she wants her daughters safe and returned home for their sakes more than hers (she knows she faces charges of treason and almost certain imprisonment as a repurcussion of her actions). The release of Jaime is only a half-chance but she had to take it.

Well this is a totally selfish action. I mean if I want My child to be the best of every other in every case of life, If everything I do aims to make My child superior to the others whatever the cost may be, If I live and breath for My child's sake and my whole world is My family then I act selfishly by just using my children.

Apop

 

[The Curious Orange]

I don't get the Catelyn Hatin' either. I think it stems from the fact that she does what she does to protect her family, at the cost of the security of the Kingdom, but does realise that the only way her children will ever be safe is if the Kingdom is safe. Releasing Jaime was madness. Even without knowing anything else, she surely should have realised that her best chance of getting the girls back was with a hostage in hand.


Oh, am I the only person who reads her name as Cat-TELL-Lin and not CATE-Lin?

 

[Thessaly]

[quote/] Well this is a totally selfish action. I mean if I want My child to be the best of every other in every case of life, If everything I do aims to make My child superior to the others whatever the cost may be, If I live and breath for My child's sake and my whole world is My family then I act selfishly by just using my children.
[/quote]

To me, it's not quite that categorical. The girls are her offspring, granted, and whilst her actions in freeing them are bound to not be entirely selfless, nor are they utterly selfish, if we consider selfish to be the furtherment of one's own interests. Catelyn is not exactly giving precedence to her own physical comforts and needs as the term denotes, because she will suffer for her actions. She's selfish insofar as everyone is selfish (not a bad thing, it's fairly natural) but I don't see her as especially selfish because she wants her girls free. I think she wants the kingdom to be at peace too, but isn't capable of envisaging that eventuality, and is just too afraid that the longer they hold Jaime, Cersei might have her daughters put to death.

It's a problematic debate, because you could argue that if she were entirely selfish, she wouldn't care at all, about anyone's children (she wouldn't be horrified at the murders of the innocent Lannister squires if she cared only for her own innocent children, and she empathises with Karstark's need to avenge his sons' deaths). I think she's well aware she will have to sacrifice her children; Robb's leading an army, and Catelyn would have been raised to understand his duty to his men and need to garner respect by leading from the van. She knows what her own duty should be, and has been a dutiful wife and lady (which I know, will be debatable to some!) but at this point, she really goes off the boiler and forgets her feudal duty, as her maternal duty to protect takes over. I read this episode in her story as finally saying 'to hell with it all', and trying vainly to take back a little control from her pretty helpless position.

Of course, it's true that everyone's actions can more or less be boiled down to selfish motivations (and I don't wish to imply that selfishness is always a *bad thing*, only that the word carries those connotations) depending on different points of view. I can see Cat's actions as both selfish and selfless, it's a matter of opinion.

I suppose what all this emphasises is that all characters are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and it's a testament to GRRM's skill that the readers empathise differently with so many characters who are in direct conflict with each other. The problem with divided loyalties and multiple oaths is that you're always going to get to a point where you'll have to break one vow or the other (to paraphrase Jaime somewhere, no page ref. sorry!). I admit that I really like playing devil's advocate with Catelyn because she gets so much flack - and I'm not even going to get started on whether or not that's deserved!

Like her or loathe her, I think Catelyn is probably one of best-written characters in the whole series, and I think that's why she generates a lot of divided opinion - because she really is very human.

Oh, and Curious Orange, I've always said Cate-lin, but Cat-ell-in sounds nice, hadn't considered that before!

 

[lauren20062001]

I think Ned would have viewed his responsiblity to the realm as more important than his oath to Catelyn and probably would have had her executed. But Robb is young and he hasn't been as hardened as Ned. I mean after all, Ned saw Jamie sitting on the throne, I think he would have been very upset about her releasing him.

 

[Apopas]

[quote/] Like her or loathe her, I think Catelyn is probably one of best-written characters in the whole series, and I think that's why she generates a lot of divided opinion - because she really is very human.

I second to that. But seriously, I know in real life a woman who is exactly like her. She is even redhead!

Oh, and Curious Orange, I've always said Cate-lin, but Cat-ell-in sounds nice, hadn't considered that before!

I always used to pronounce her as Cat-lin the accent to a. Maybe because the Greek translator, translated her like this and I got used to that.

I think Ned would have viewed his responsiblity to the realm as more important than his oath to Catelyn and probably would have had her executed. But Robb is young and he hasn't been as hardened as Ned. I mean after all, Ned saw Jamie sitting on the throne, I think he would have been very upset about her releasing him.

I, completely, agree!

 

[Koopa]

Many of you fail to see my point. Its true that catelyn is a well-written character (wich changes nothing about the hate/not hate part btw.), its true that she made some mistakes wich is why many dislike her.

the reason why i think most people dislike her is not because of her actions or her viewpoints but for the person that she is. Her thoughts are boring, repetitive, with a whining sense too them. You could take the worst person in the world and in bookform i 'd still like that person better. Catelyn is even worse then Felesin (Malazan). On all the baords i see people giving explanations about why they dislike her, and because its canon, and they try their best to pinpoint a reason to reach for her all she did wrong. When simply put its her character that is hateful. (if you understand what i mean, i cant seem to really word it out well in english)

Then again maybe that is just me, maybe i am the only one here who dislikes her because of that.

 

[Thessaly]

Many of you fail to see my point. Its true that catelyn is a well-written character (wich changes nothing about the hate/not hate part btw.), its true that she made some mistakes wich is why many dislike her.

the reason why i think most people dislike her is not because of her actions or her viewpoints but for the person that she is. Her thoughts are boring, repetitive, with a whining sense too them. You could take the worst person in the world and in bookform i 'd still like that person better.

I think I see your point. It seems to be exactly the same reason why I dislike Jon Snow!

He isn't barbaric like Gregor, demented like Cersei, or creepy like... well, a lot of characters, he just bores me rigid! I find him utterly unlikeable, and, as you find with Catelyn, repetitive and whiny! I just don't like him, for the person he is, not for what he does, or what he believes. I don't like Dany much either, for same reasons listed above. It's a valid reason; some people you just don't like, and others you do, simple as that.

Some characters, I loved instantly; e.g. Brienne and Tyrion, or grew to love them; e.g. Sansa and Jaime, for more explicable reasons than the reason why I like Cat. With Catelyn, I just like her, regardless of her actions etc. She's not one of my favourite characters, but I prefer her to many. My hate/hate not issue with Catelyn is (as it is for you, only we've got opposite opinions!) not ultimately based on her actions or the fact that she's brilliantly written; I like Catelyn as a person (and UnPerson too).

Off topic, but I actually love Tywin Lannister for the person he is, and he's a total (insert expletive)!

 

[Shacklock]

I think I see your point. It seems to be exactly the same reason why I dislike Jon Snow!

He isn't barbaric like Gregor, demented like Cersei, or creepy like... well, a lot of characters, he just bores me rigid! I find him utterly unlikeable, and, as you find with Catelyn, repetitive and whiny! I just don't like him, for the person he is, not for what he does, or what he believes. I don't like Dany much either, for same reasons listed above. It's a valid reason; some people you just don't like, and others you do, simple as that.

Some characters, I loved instantly; e.g. Brienne and Tyrion, or grew to love them; e.g. Sansa and Jaime, for more explicable reasons than the reason why I like Cat. With Catelyn, I just like her, regardless of her actions etc. She's not one of my favourite characters, but I prefer her to many. My hate/hate not issue with Catelyn is (as it is for you, only we've got opposite opinions!) not ultimately based on her actions or the fact that she's brilliantly written; I like Catelyn as a person (and UnPerson too).

Off topic, but I actually love Tywin Lannister for the person he is, and he's a total (insert expletive)!

I agree about the Catelyn part but not Jon Snow, he is kept interesting due to the people around him and the various events around him.

 

[Koraf]

I think I see your point. It seems to be exactly the same reason why I dislike Jon Snow!

... he just bores me rigid! I find him utterly unlikeable, and ... repetitive and whiny! I just don't like him...

These are the exact reasons I didn't like Catelyn. I found her to be a very unlikeable character. Anytime I came to one of her chapters, I wanted to stop reading, close the book and get some sleep. I felt I had to force myself to through those chapters, whereas the other characters were nothing like that ... well, maybe Sansa ... but she's like her mother

Some characters, I loved instantly; e.g. Brienne and Tyrion, or grew to love them; e.g. Sansa and Jaime...

Brienne and Tyrion definitely did not evoke instant love from me... although, I must admit, I'm liking Tyrion more and more ... and similarly Jamie. But Brienne, I couldn't really care less.

 

[Thessaly]

I agree about the Catelyn part but not Jon Snow, he is kept interesting due to the people around him and the various events around him.

I think Jon's story is interesting, I just don't take to him as a character (but I think, and hope, that he's improving post-Lord Commandership so I may well revise my opinion of him in the next book!). Even though I myself like Catelyn, I admit that it's probably easier to dislike her personality (to keep this post vaguely on-topic) compared to some of the other characters, like Jon for example; I think I'm probably quite unusual in disliking him. But hey, different strokes and all that!

Oh Koraf, just read your post; poor Brienne, I felt for her as soon as the wench clunked her oversized way into the story, with all that pent-up love for Renly! I do find her chapters a bit boring on the re-reads, but I love her idealistic sense of honour, and her relationship with Jaime!

In fact (Feast spoiler)...


If UnCat does leave her hanging, I will have no choice but to join the ranks of the Catelyn haters!

 

[Slyde]

... Even though I myself like Catelyn, I admit that it's probably easier to dislike her personality...

Oh Koraf, just read your post; poor Brienne, I felt for her as soon as the wench clunked her oversized way into the story, with all that pent-up love for Renly! I do find her chapters a bit boring on the re-reads, but I love her idealistic sense of honour, and her relationship with Jaime!

In fact (Feast spoiler)...

If UnCat does leave her hanging, I will have no choice but to join the ranks of the Catelyn haters!

I agree with you Thessaly. I liked Catelyn and Brienne.

Even though I didn't like the way Catelyn treated Jon, she was still a decent person who did what she thought was best for her family. But, if she does leave Brienne 'hanging', I may change my mind about her.

As for Brienne, I feel sorry for her because of how everyone treats her. I admire her courage, honor, and sense of responsibility. She hasn't had an easy life, and has overcome many obstacles along the way.

 

[Boaz]

What makes Catelyn so intriguing is that she is obviously one of the good guys and she is obviously talented in many areas. So we expect a lot from her and in many ways she succeeds in meeting expectations while in other ways failing spectacularly.

 

[TK-421]

I guess that would her imperfect, like, well, the rest of us.

That still doesn't mean I like her personally but enjoyed reading her character and her POV.