Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[ras'matroi]

Re: Jon Snow

But what about the story Ned (the lord of starfall riding with the kings men) told Arya. All this about Jon being his milkbrother and Jon's mother being a serving girl.
There is no reason why he should lie to Arya...

 

[asdar]

Re: Jon Snow

Exactly ra'matroi, that's Wylla in the story, she was the serving girl and no reason that we know of for the young man to lie.

I guess it's entirely possible that Ned convinced them to tell the tale. Jon could still be his milk brother but brought directly from Lyanna's death bed by Ned. Wylla would know for sure and I've never heard that bar maids were very tight lipped, but it could be that way.

These are the things that keep me from buying the whole thing just yet. The few counter facts and the counter intuitive move by Ned, if the story is true, in not at least keeping Cat up to date.

I also can't bring myself to think that Ned, who was all good, could condemn his dead, but still revered, sisters son to the wall. I'd find it easier to believe he'd send his own pure sons to the wall.

 

[Raven]

Re: Jon Snow

Wylla was not a bar maid... where did you get that idea?

And as far as the Starks are concerned, the Wall is not something you are 'condemned' to but a noble calling. If Ned had no problem with his brother serving on the Wall, why would he balk at Lyanna's son doing so also?

 

[Boaz]

Re: Jon Snow

Regarding Wylla (sp?): Robert makes some reference to a time when he and Ned supposedly went wenching in their youth; Robert remembers her name was Wylla, Willa, Millie, or something like that. Perhaps it was in Dorne at the conclusion of the war. In Robert's mind they were wenching... He was probably drunk as a skunk... We know of Robert's affinity for bar maids... Soooooo, it would have been easy enough for Ned to lie to Robert about a roll in the hay with some local girl named Wylla... and when Wylla shows up later with a babe at the breast, Ned is proven to be the father of the child, no further questions.

Theorycraft, this has been discussed on this website and others.

Now the questions are: Did Ned really go wenching or is Wylla a participant in the cover up of Jon's parentage?

If Ned + Wylla = Jon, fine, Jon is the ******* son of Ned Stark as we've been told all along.

If Ned + some other local girl = Jon, then why involve Wylla and not the real birth mother?

If some guy +Wylla = Jon, why on earth would Ned get involved?

If Jon is the son of someone dear to Ned, then Ned might need to lie and create a cover story for Jon. Lyanna, Howland, Ned's men, and perhaps Robert were the only people that we know of whom Ned loved and were down in Dorne near/at/after the end of the war. If it was Howland's *******, Howland could have done as he pleased with him. If it was Robert's *******, why did Ned favor him above all the other bastards that Ned met in his life? If Jon is the ******* of one of Ned's men, giving him a job would be more than enough... why adopt him as a ******* son and cause friction with his wife?

Imo, Lyanna is the only one that makes sense. First, Jon looks like a Stark, not a Reed, not a Baratheon, nor a Dornishman. Second, Ned never remembers anyone else extracting a promise from him, ie Howland saying, "Promise me, Ned. Take my ******* son away so he won't grow up a frog eater."

Third, Ned was always about fulfilling his duty... in this he was like a Tully. Ned dutifully fostered with Jon Arryn at the Eyrie. Ned dutifully followed Robert in the rebellion and did not press any claim to the Iron Throne. Ned dutifully wedded and bedded Brandon's bride after Brandon's murder. Ned dutifully did not slay Jaime Lannister, Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, nor Tywin Lannister because of Robert's commands. Ned dutifully took up the lordship of the North and the position of Warden. Ned dutifully waged war on Balon Greyjoy and took Theon as hostage. Ned dutifully executed traitors, renegades, and turncloaks with his own hands. Ned dutifully accepted the postion of Hand.

I'm not saying Ned was an automaton. His conscience guided him in matters duty, love, honor, family, politics, and war. But with his beloved sister (I get the feeling that Lyanna was the one that held Rickard, Brandon, Ned, and Benjen together) on her deathbed, would Ned consider her last wishes of paramount importance. Would he have had the courage to refuse her? He certainly did not have the courage to refuse Robert on his deathbed. He let both of them die in peace, rather than cause them further anguish. In both cases, he took the burden of facing the truth and bearing the heavy burden upon himself.

If Robert + Lyanna = Jon, why did Robert not take the only piece of Lyanna he had left to King's Landing? If Ned and Jon Arryn talked Robert out of this, why does Robert not wish back fondly on Lyanna's son when he talks of how much he dislikes his own sons?

If Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon, then we have another possible head for the dragon, we have a reason for Ned's use of Wylla, we have reason for Ned's deception towards his wife, and we have reason for Ned letting Jon go to the Wall. Ned knew the Wall and it's brotherhood well. He knew Maester Aemon served there.

I can picture Ned thinking that the last Targaryen ******* could serve honorably defending his old kingdom. Declaring Jon's true parentage to Jon, could only bleed the realm and end in the death of Jon (Ned's foster son) or in the death of Robert (Ned's childhood best friend). I see Ned think that letting Jon believe he's a half-Stark is alright... it is the truth, if not the whole truth.

 

[asdar]

Re: Jon Snow

I was just going by memory for my post. I'll take what you said as proof that Wylla wasn't a barmaid. It stuck in my mind that she was for some reason but I don't mean to pass off my memory as proof.

The wall may well be considered a noble calling but Ned's reluctance to send the boy there mixed with every other single opinion in the book doesn't make it seem appealing to me.

I don't really like to argue things, please take everything said by other people as fact and my own threads as opinion. It won't bother me at all.

I see the signs of R+L=J, I just think that there are some open statements that say Ned+Wylla=Jon and a lot of what I consider to be common sense reasoning against R+L=J.

Jon looks like Ned, and while he could look like a stark following Lyanna, I think it's telling that he and Arya look alike, both sharing Neds looks apparently. Cousins often look alike but not as often as siblings.

There's coroboration that Ned's and Wylla's baby was a milk brother and a few other references that aren't any where near conclussive but point to the given story being true.

If they're not true and Jon is R+L=Jon I'm a happy guy. I think it's possible and would be a good twist on the storyline. I don't mind being wrong at all.

 

[Raven]

Re: Jon Snow

Boaz: I read that passage slightly differently. Ned says 'we are no longer the boys we were' and Robert replies that 'you never were the boy you were', implying that Ned never did go wenching. He then says 'but there was that one girl... your *******'s mother' meaning Wylla. There's no implication there that Robert has direct knowledge of a liaison between Wylla and Ned, and indeed the timelines make it difficult to see how he could have done. Robert and Ned spent a lot of the war in different places.

IOW, it's unlikely Robert ever met Wylla.

IIRC, there is some indication Wylla was a maid in service at Starfall, certainly after the war. The most likely thing is that she was the same before it. This links her to Ned through Ashara. And conveniently, to Rhaegar and Lyanna too. There is a passage where Ned recalls how 'they' found him with Lyanna's body. This indicates someone else other than Howland was there... and if Lyanna was known to be ill, a wetnurse would be a sensible provision.

 

[Boaz]

Re: Jon Snow

I don't mind being wrong at all.

I don't mind either.

Raven, I agree that Robert's meaning was that Ned never had any fun, except the one time in Robert's memory. But his memory on this is hazy, like he only knows what Ned told him about this supposed amorous encounter. And btw, what does IOW mean? I often wonder... In old Westeros... Instead of weeping... Intended only with...

Martin has not nailed this down for us... and he probably won't 'til the next to last book. He knows the way it really is, but he's gonna leave us guessing.

I think the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents is most likely, imo... but this is only 'cause Raven and others have not given solid theories to the contrary. The minute they do, I'll change my opinion.

Edit: In other words! I got it! I think... I hope. I hope. I hope, I hope, I hope.

 

[zerohero]

Re: Jon Snow

Im glad to see nobody was mad at me starting another thread about this. I personaly believe that Jon is not Neds son. I cant really argue it and I dont have any evidence to support it, its just a feeling Ive had since the first book. From reading the previous post on Jon and everything you guys have posted in this thread, it seems GRRM is definately hinting at something here. I thought it was probly my own wishfull thinking until I posted here and found that almost everyone thinks the same way. If it turns out that Jon is just Neds son, then its going to be a big let down.

On a seperate note, who is everyones favorite character? Mine is Tyrion followed by Jon.

 

[Niolani]

Re: Jon Snow

I like Tyrion too, he along with jon, Arya and Brienne are my favorites.

 

[asdar]

Re: Jon Snow

Mine are Arya, Sansa and Sam.

 

[Boaz]

Re: Jon Snow

Favorite character thread:

http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/3353-favourite-characters.html

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Re: Jon Snow

The wall may well be considered a noble calling but Ned's reluctance to send the boy there mixed with every other single opinion in the book doesn't make it seem appealing to me.

I'm sure that Ned was merely reluctant to send Jon to the Wall because he had probably dreamed of giving Jon more than that- a wife, a family, and maybe some lands of his own.

Jon looks like Ned, and while he could look like a stark following Lyanna, I think it's telling that he and Arya look alike, both sharing Neds looks apparently. Cousins often look alike but not as often as siblings.

Jon and Arya look alike, yes. But Ned himself said that Arya looks very much like her aunt, Lyanna. So Jon really could look like Lyanna, and Arya as well. It's quite possible for a family resemblance of that sort. My mom always says I look more like her younger sister...

There's coroboration that Ned's and Wylla's baby was a milk brother and a few other references that aren't any where near conclussive but point to the given story being true.

"Milk brother" does not imply that either "brother" is the blood child of the mother. She can simply be the wetnurse for two different children. Of course there is a chance that Wylla was Jon's mother, but then why go through the trouble to hide it? Ned has been careful to make sure that everyone believes that he is the father of the child. I don't think there would be any purpose of hiding who the mother was, if she were a servant.

 

[asdar]

Re: Jon Snow

The book just doesn't show the Wall as a Noble calling except in one case and that's Ned's brother.

Every other person we meet there is either a criminal or an unwanted noble. You can try to spin it any way you want but that's just the way it is.

You said it exactly the way I feel it was as well. "because he had probably dreamed of giving Jon more than that- a wife, a family, and maybe some lands of his own."

I just doesn't make sense to me for the character that Ned is portrayed as in the book to send Jon to the wall without telling him the truth. It doesn't make sense that in all the years from Jon's birth to his being sent to the wall that Ned didn't let Catelyn in on the secret even if only to keep her from asking the wrong questions.

I agree that Milk brothers don't need to mean that either is the real child but again it's evidence that supports Jon being Ned and Wylla's son. It's the most direct support for Ned's claim of fatherhood. If nothing else it let's one more person in on the R+L=J conspiracy. Wylla, Ned and Howland at least.

I won't be surprised if it comes out that R+L = Jon, but I won't say it's true until I hear from Howland Reed or Wylla.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Re: Jon Snow

Every other person we meet there is either a criminal or an unwanted noble. You can try to spin it any way you want but that's just the way it is.

I'm not sure if "unwanted noble" is quite the way I'd put it. Many of the nobles there are ones that were simply put out of the way. And regardless of what they had done, I don't consider Pip, Grenn, Sam, Qhorin Halfhand, Donal Noye, Commander Mormont, Maester Aemon, or Dolorous Edd to be beneath Jon in any way. Many of the men at the Wall are total vermin, but you could definitely find their equals, in one form or another, at court. The only difference is that the men on the Wall have been tried and found guilty for their crimes. I'm sure Gregor Clegane has them all beat.

 

[asdar]

Re: Jon Snow

That's a big difference. Jon wasn't convicted or guilty in fact of anything that would get him sent to the wall.

Was it good that Sam got sent to the wall? I think it was horrible for his father to send him there. It wasn't done for Sam's well being.

Jon chose to go on his own, and I don't blame Ned completely for his going, but I find it hard to believe that at that point Ned wouldn't either come clean with Cat or at the very minimum tell Jon of his true parentage.

I would understand if GRRM is just holding back the surprise. It doesn't hold together in my opinion that he would send his very loved sister's son without either trying to convince Cat with the truth or at least giving Jon his heritage.

If it comes to pass, then I'll accept it without bitterness.

 

[direghost]

Re: Jon Snow

I'm not sure if "unwanted noble" is quite the way I'd put it. Many of the nobles there are ones that were simply put out of the way. And regardless of what they had done, I don't consider Pip, Grenn, Sam, Qhorin Halfhand, Donal Noye, Commander Mormont, Maester Aemon, or Dolorous Edd to be beneath Jon in any way. Many of the men at the Wall are total vermin, but you could definitely find their equals, in one form or another, at court. The only difference is that the men on the Wall have been tried and found guilty for their crimes. I'm sure Gregor Clegane has them all beat.

Not that this point needs seconding, but it doesn't have to be criminals on the wall. They kept sending ravens to Kings Landing, and all of the 5 Kings, asking for more troops. And of course, Stannis is now with the remnants of his army.
Benjen Stark's presence on the wall might have something to do with the R+L=J theory as well.

 

[asdar]

Re: Jon Snow

I agree that it doesn't have to be, but when they sent criminals there was a statement about criminals being sent. It's an illogical honor at best, but that's almost beside the point.

There are definitely some signs that R+L=J, I'm just saying there are straightforward signs that support Ned+??=Jon.

I should have never brought up the point, I do think that R+L will be the story. It fits too well with the story.

 

[Niolani]

Re: Jon Snow

just a quick thought about the Lyanna & Rhaegar being lovers instead of victim and rapist: if Lyanna was willingly with Rhaegar, why did Ned and the others have to fight the kingsguard? If she was not a prisoner, why wouldn't they let her brother in to see her or whatever?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Re: Jon Snow

just a quick thought about the Lyanna & Rhaegar being lovers instead of victim and rapist: if Lyanna was willingly with Rhaegar, why did Ned and the others have to fight the kingsguard? If she was not a prisoner, why wouldn't they let her brother in to see her or whatever?

Because her brother (and the troops he brought!) was one of the leaders of the Rebellion which killed their beloved Rhaegar perhaps?
Plus, they also knew of Jamie's treachery and the rape of Kings Landing so the thought of another baby getting murdered to cement Robert's rule on the throne was no doubt at the forefront of their minds. Plus that newborn was effectively the legimate King at that point (not sure if they knew Viserys & Dany had been spirited to safety - probably not)

 

[Boaz]

Re: Jon Snow

Benjen Stark's presence on the wall might have something to do with the R+L=J theory as well.

Are you saying that Ned and Benjen knew of R+L=J, so they hatched a plan for Benjen to take the black and prepare the way for Jon on the Wall?

This might explain why Ned did not tell Jon of his true parentage... Ben was going to do it at the right time... perhaps right before Jon took his vows... or perhaps a few years after Jon had taken his vows and was entrenched in the Watch... or perhaps never. Perhaps Ned and Ben decided to share the raising of Jon... Ned at Winterfell and Ben at the Wall.

The only flaw so far that I see is that Ben should have claimed Jon as his son and spared Ned's honor and marriage. But then again, would Jon have taken the Black if his estranged father was already on the Wall?