Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[direghost]

Re: Jon Snow

Are you saying that Ned and Benjen knew of R+L=J, so they hatched a plan for Benjen to take the black and prepare the way for Jon on the Wall?

This might explain why Ned did not tell Jon of his true parentage... Ben was going to do it at the right time... perhaps right before Jon took his vows... or perhaps a few years after Jon had taken his vows and was entrenched in the Watch... or perhaps never. Perhaps Ned and Ben decided to share the raising of Jon... Ned at Winterfell and Ben at the Wall.

The only flaw so far that I see is that Ben should have claimed Jon as his son and spared Ned's honor and marriage. But then again, would Jon have taken the Black if his estranged father was already on the Wall?

I suspect that was part of it. Plus Benjen was one of two people alive who knew the R+L=J, and it kept him out of harm's way as well.

Benjen couldn't have claimed Jon was his own if any saw Ned coming back to Winterfell with the baby. At that point, Ned had to sacrifice his honor and his marriage for his promise to his dying sister. And when Jon volunteers for the wall, I remember Ned thinking "not yet, a couple years more" or something along those lines rather then "that is not what I intended for him." Who knows if we'll ever know, but I always thought it made sense.

 

[rudycrab]

Re: Jon Snow

Although there is alot of evidence pointing towards R+L = J, I am still not convinced. This whole Ned saying Jon was his son to save him from Robert doesn't flow. One of the things that shocks and angers Ned about the new kingly Robert is the fact that he would order the death of a child ( Dany). If he really thought that Robert would kill baby Jon, the son of Ned's sister, it would not be such a suprise to him that he would kill some completely unrelated girl. PLus, in the GoT on page 319, after seeing one of Robert's *******'s "Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger verison of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, why did he fill men with such lusts?" this seems like a strangely personal and self-chastising thought process for a guy thinking about his sister's child.

 

[Adasunshine]

Re: Jon Snow

I also always assumed Jon was Ned's as everytime Catelyn looked at him all she could see was a replica of her husband which made her seethe and hate him more (right with ya JohnSnow). I still believe that he's Ned's and don't really think he's a Targaryen although at the same time it wouldn't surprise me.

As for being Lord Commander of the Great Ice Wall not being enough of a destiny for Snow, I think that's wrong, when you think about it, it's perfect for him. I'm hoping he will revive everyone's faith in the Night's Watch and bring it back to it's former glory so that he is the true ultimate power over the Seven Kingdoms. Back in the old days, even the Targaryens (before they went mad) heeded the words of the Lord Commander. There's also the clans to think about, could he restore civilisation beyond the wall?

Boaz, I have also put almost all characters parentage under scrutiny, most of all Tyrion, something's not quite right there. I think Robb and Edmure's children are legitimate as their wives, if not their families, truly thought they loved them. As for Robert Arryn, PLEASE, that boy is so Littlefinger's. Lord Hoster married her off to Jon Arryn and I'm sure it's implied she was preggers at the time which is why it was such a good match - she was spoiled. I'm not saying this was Robert (he's way too young) but she and Littlefinger obviously kept in touch so that's my guess.

Just thinking out loud, forgive the rambling.

xx

 

[Raven]

Re: Jon Snow

rudycrab: I don't think Ned is shocked that Robert would order Dany's death: disappointed, perhaps, and certainly angry, but not shocked.

And why would he be? Remember, when Ned (in the R+L=J theory) finds out about Jon, he is fresh from seeing Robert at KL look at the bodies of two murdered children and saying 'I see no children, only dragonspawn'.

Robert refused point blank to punish the murderers of Rhaegar's children and he and Ned fell out badly over the issue. Now here is another of Rhaegar's children... and moreover one conceived on the woman Robert loves. (Whether by force or consent hardly matters - which would make Robert angrier? Rhaegar raping Lyanna or Lyanna being in love with Rhaegar?) The logical conclusion is that Robert, even if he doesn't kill the kid himself, is not going to raise a finger to prevent his death.

Some people claim he would have spared and protected the child for the sake of Lyanna's memory. This seems to me to be a fairly substantial misreading of Robert's character. But even if it were true... the Lannisters would off the kid in an instant. Not blatantly, but in an 'accident' perhaps. He was too much of a threat for Tywin to tolerate his existence. (And maybe even for Jon Arryn to do so. That old man was no fool...)

And Robert, remember, subsequently ignored the murder of two of his children by Cersei, so if Ned doubted his willingness to protect the child he would be right to do so.

No, Ned lying to protect the child is one of the bits of the theory that flows best, IMO.

 

[JohnSnow]

Re: Jon Snow

Raven...

Your posts are usually some of the most stable, well founded response on this page. Just wanted you to know that I look forward to reading you comments.

How many times have you read these books?

I think only a fool would argue against Roberts hatred for anything Targaryean. It was only on his deathbed that he saw the fault in what Ned had tried to dissuade.

Do you think his hatred comes from his knowledge that Lyanna truly did love Rheagar and he chose to see her as victim?

snow

 

[Raven]

Re: Jon Snow

John: all the way through? Maybe four or five times. I've been around the main asoiaf boards for about four years though, that tends to sharpen you.

Robert seems committed to the 'kidnap and rape' story but I do wonder if he secretly wonders in his heart...

 

[rudycrab]

Re: Jon Snow

R+L= J is mostly likely right but I guess I always liked the idea that Ned had this one mistake in his past that dishonored him . I felt like it made him more human and less like a little angel on everyone's shoulder. Plus, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't tell Cat. I can see him dishonoring himself for his sister, like he does later for Sansa, but I think he would trust his wife not to tell anyone and realize that she wouldn't be so crappy to Jon if she knew the truth.

 

[JohnSnow]

Re: Jon Snow

R+L= J is mostly likely right but I guess I always liked the idea that Ned had this one mistake in his past that dishonored him . I felt like it made him more human and less like a little angel on everyone's shoulder. Plus, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't tell Cat. I can see him dishonoring himself for his sister, like he does later for Sansa, but I think he would trust his wife not to tell anyone and realize that she wouldn't be so crappy to Jon if she knew the truth.

This was always the reason why I had a sneaky suspicion Jon was Brandon's son. Doesn't have nearly as much season to it as R+l=J, but would give a reason to not tell Cat.

I still believe the r+l=j theory tho.

snow

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Re: Jon Snow

R+L= J is mostly likely right but I guess I always liked the idea that Ned had this one mistake in his past that dishonored him . I felt like it made him more human and less like a little angel on everyone's shoulder. Plus, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't tell Cat. I can see him dishonoring himself for his sister, like he does later for Sansa, but I think he would trust his wife not to tell anyone and realize that she wouldn't be so crappy to Jon if she knew the truth.

Ned didn't really know Cat, though, when they were married. He didn't know where her loyalties lay. After all, the words of her house very specifically include a loyalty to the Tully family. And he probably figured it was safer for Jon if Cat had no idea- people might suspect if she warmed up to Jon and took him in like her own son.

 

[rudycrab]

Re: Jon Snow

I am not saying he would have told her right away but they did live together for years after he came back. I think it is safe to say they grow to trust and love each other. I just don't think that Ned would keep it from her for that long and make Jon suffer for it and I don't think Cat would just instantly love Jon when she found out but mabye she would be quite so cold towards him. Also, I am not sure but I don't think the Tully words say loyalty to the Tully Family specifically, but something like "Family, Loyalty, Honor" so "loyalty" could mean loyalty to a Stark husband as well.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Re: Jon Snow

I agree with you on the Tully words. However, I really think it was best for Catelyn not to be told, no matter when or how. Even if Ned waited to tell her, it seems to me that as a jealous wife she would want Ned's name cleared, if only for the sake of her own pride. Somehow, the word would leak out.

 

[rudycrab]

Re: Jon Snow

Thats a good point. I hadn't really thought of that. I assumed her relief would overcome her pride and she would not put Jon's life in danger, but I tend not to think of Cat as negatively as some others... cough JohnSnow

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Re: Jon Snow

Personally I didn't Cat to warm up to Jon because her being a b***h to Jon was formative to his character and partly drove him to join the night's watch and become what he is.

 

[Raven]

Re: Jon Snow

I believe Ned was intending to tell Cat at some point, perhaps once Jon had become an adult and Ned had decided what to do with him... but the right time never came. At first he couldn't trust her, then he couldn't risk changing her attitude to Jon, then one excuse after another, until it was too late...

 

[Niolani]

Re: Jon Snow

Will Jon guide Meera in the ways of love?

That bit just cracked me up
I'm not sure who jon's parents are but it's interesting that Bran and Rickon had that dream of Ned just after his execution and Bran said Ned was sad about something to do with Jon. I'm guessing Ned regretted never telling Jon who his mother was.

 

[napthali]

Re: Jon Snow

Guilty of not reading all the posts..but a romance between Rhaegar and Ned's sister would explain Cersei's comment about Rhaegar falling for the wolf-girl (that remarks been haunting me) as well as wJon's resemblance to Ned

hot damn the other shoe just fell :excitedlittledance:

does this mean Jon will be flying one of the dragons :hmmn:

 

[TK-421]

Re: Jon Snow

There was also a remark by the wandering septon of the fight on the Trident between Robert and Rheagar being over a woman...I think the septon was at the battle wasn't he?

 

[Delvor]

Re: Jon Snow

Just wondering, but Robb did legitamize Jon Snow and name him his heir before the red wedding right? Or was it something else that he got all of his lords to sign witness too?

Hello btw.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Re: Jon Snow

Robb did legitimize Jon and name him as his heir, but Robb is dead now, and his decree is moot in the eyes of all of the other would-be kings.

 

[Delvor]

Re: Jon Snow

But would it be in the eyes of Robbs loyal bannermen such as greatjon etc.
ANyone know what became of him? I may have missed something.