The Valonqar

[juleska]

Oooo, that's an interesting idea No One!

I can see both Tyrion and Jaime being willing to kill Cersei, if the circumstances were right, but it's hard to imagine them turning against each other to the point of killing. It would be quite tragic if they did. I can't quite recall from AFfC, but do we get much insight into Jaime's thoughts on how he feels about Tyrion killing their father? I can't recall him having murderous thoughts toward Tyrion, but maybe I'm not remembering too well.

AFFC made it clear the special bond between Jamie and Tyrion (that was essentially a secret from Cersei as far as we know). Yet when Jamie freed Tyrion he did not expect him to kill their father. When he was standing watch at Tywin's wake his "inner monologue" blamed himself as much as Tyrion for his father's death. He doesn't hate Tyrion the way Cersei ever did and I still don't think he hates him now, but he bears the burden of guilt for the Tyrion's deeds. I wouldn't classify them as murderous thoughts.

I think Jamie's transformation in the last 2 books demonstrates that he is far more committed to protecting The Realm than he is to his family...hence the growing distance between him and his sister. We learn the reason Jamie slew Aerys....essentially to protect the realm from his madness and end the war. People always assumed his motives were dirty and treated him accordingly (oathbreaker, kingslayer, etc). Even Ned Stark once told little Arya that there are some lies are "not without honor", and Jamie's deeds show his belief that it's not right to keep an oath for the sole purpose of keeping an oath, that some oaths should be broken if the greater good is served. Relieving the realm of Aerys' madness would fit that criteria, I think.

So why am I going on about all this? Because I think that portrait of Jamie supports the idea that he would absolutely take Cersei's life for the same reason....the good of the realm. But would he choke her? It's not really his style. Yes he's lost his sword hand but he lives by the blade.

My point is there is plenty of reason to suspect Jamie as the valonqar, but just as much reason to doubt it.

 

[Boaz]

The biggest problem that I have with the theory that Dany is both the supplanting queen and the valonqar is that Dany does not kill anyone herself. She has "people" for that kind of messy business. And also dragons.

Well, she has not personally killed anyone after killing her mother at birth, dragging the assassin to his death and smothering Drogo.

 

[juleska]

Well, she has not personally killed anyone after killing her mother at birth, dragging the assassin to his death and smothering Drogo.

Mother doesn't count, she was a newborn infant, that isn't murder. Dragging the assassin to his death, eh...maybe. He was tied to her horse, certainly, but I don't think she tied him to the horse and I don't think it was her idea. At least, we have no proof it was or wasn't. I did forget about Drogo....but even that was different, and I wouldn't call that murder.

 

[juleska]

One hand should be enough for a guy like Jaime to kill his sister. However, he may have some problems with that double chin of hers.

Personally, I think Arya would get alot more satisfaction out of killing Cersei than Jaime would. I'm beginning to think that may be a moer likely scenario. Jaime killing Cersei may be either a great weight off his shoulders or haunt him for the rest of his days.

You're probably right that in the end, Tyrion may do her in.

Then there's Littlefinger who seems to have it in for Cersei. Can't imagine why...Just her orchestrating the death of the love of his life: Catelyn...

Littlefinger's plans to thwart Cersei began long before the Red Wedding.

 

[Ursa major]

To be fair, I think Littlefinger has plans to thwart everyone. (I expect that Cersei is one of his easier assignments.)

 

[RoboAmish]

Volonqar= Young Griff. Anyone?

*sound of crickets*

 

[Jaqen H'gar]

I think it is really impossible to figure out who it is at this point, since it just means "little brother" not "cersei's little brother". For all we know it is just A little brother, not hers. it could be jon, bran, rickon, stannis, daven (seaworth), trystane, theon, victarion, aegon, Dickon, damphair, jaime, tyrion, tommen . . . literally almost any male character could be it, because think about all of the major male characters that have died in the series (Ned, Robert, Viserys, Robb, Quentyn, etc) almost all of them (with the exception of Renly) are OLDER BROTHERS.
Even the ones that we don't even see are the older brothers. For example, Brandon (ned's older brother) theon's 2 older brothers, davos's 4 oldest sons, Missandei's older brother, balon greyjoy, gregor clegane (sort of), hoster tully (blackfish's older brother). THE YOUNGER BROTHERS ARE THE ONES WHO SURVIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Eulalia]

GRRM specifically refers to Cersei having a "crown" of golden hair, do you think he is setting us up for her kids just having blonde hair in the prophecy? That would mean that Myrcella does not have to be a queen before Cersei dies.

 

[ValarMorgulis]

Volonqar= Young Griff. Anyone?

*sound of crickets*

My thoughts exactly. Young Griff makes perfect sense: It fits in with Daenerys being the "another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down". I was going to make a joke but I don't want to ruin Book 5 for those who are still reading.

 

[Mesanna]

GRRM specifically refers to Cersei having a "crown" of golden hair, do you think he is setting us up for her kids just having blonde hair in the prophecy? That would mean that Myrcella does not have to be a queen before Cersei dies.

Interesting point Eulalia! Jaime's golden-haired children, rather than the black-haired kids she could have had with Robert.

I'm starting to lean towards Myrcella's "shroud" being a veil or suchlike that she wears to cover her scar, especially if she ever gets back to Kings Landing where her mother abhors deformity of any sort. Tommen will likely die though, poor little soul.

 

[Stormkith]

Tyrion is a red herring.

Aegon Targaryen is the Valonqar.

 

[Stormkith]

My thoughts exactly. Young Griff makes perfect sense: It fits in with Daenerys being the "another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down". I was going to make a joke but I don't want to ruin Book 5 for those who are still reading.

Exactly this. Daenerys is clearly the queen of the prophecy, and Aegon (Young Griff) is the little brother that is destined to kill Cersei.

 

[Boaz]

Stormkith, Welcome! We're glad you're here. We love to share thoughts and read new and interesting comments. Please don't get scared off by posters that dont' absolutely agree with you... you've got a right to your opinion.

I don't claim to know what GRRM is thinking, but here's my thoughts. Please, go ahead and shoot them down... everyone else does!

I'm not sold that valonqar means anything other than Cersei's younger brother. Jaime or Tyrion. Or Jon. Or Dany. You can find my crackpot theory on previous pages.

If it's not her little brother, then the elder sibling of the valonqar must be somebody famous to reveal the importance of the younger brother. I think the Hound, Jon, Loras, and Victarion are better valonqars than Aegon. Does anyone even remember the name and accomplishments of Aegon's elder sibling?

And I think that even interpreting younger brother as a novice monk would make Lancel a better valonqar than Aegon. Okay... that's an exaggeration, I admit.

Happy Posting!

 

[Tywin]

And I think that even interpreting younger brother as a novice monk would make Lancel a better valonqar than Aegon. Okay... that's an exaggeration, I admit.

If the Hound is actually still alive and living at that monastery... that might make him a novice monk, no?

In any event, I think that Jaime is by far the best candidate to kill his sister.

 

[Boaz]

I agree on Jaime. Cersei won't see it coming. I wonder if GRRM will have them both die in the same scene... they came into the world together as twins and they'll leave it together as villains.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I too agree that it will be Jamie who is her undoing. it would be fitting and unexpected (by cersei). I'm not sure that Jaime will die though. I feel like GRRM won't kill off everyone who deserves to die, that would be too much of a happy ending.

 

[Young stormlord]

I actually like my theory that Arya is Valonqar more. We know that dragons mentioned in Valyrian prophecies can mean both male and female dragons(Thus, Dany=AA). Valonqar is the High Valyrian word. What if there is ambiguity in it? What if Valonqar actually means younger sibling?

And Arya is the younger sibling of Young Wolf, a guy that got famous at 15.

Or, it could mean Sansa, although she fits more of younger and more beautiful queen part.

Or Sandor, who is younger brother of Cersei's white knight, the monstrosity bound to fight for her honour and her life.

It could mean lots of things... As Maester Marwyn had said, "prophecies will always bite your **** off."

 

[juleska]

***Some spoilers from ADWD as well as AFFC below***
I think I've found some anecdotal evidence that lends credence to the theory of Jaime being the valonqar. It's in one of his later chapters in AFFC, after he's fitted with the golden hand and he's made his way towards Riverrun to assist with the siege there. He's talking to his cousin and pauses for a moment to think of a dream he'd had recently:

Last night he dreamed he'd found her f***ing Moon Boy. He'd killed the fool and smashed his sister's teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia. In his dreams Jaime always had two hands; one was made of gold, but it worked just like the other.

Earlier in the same chapter Jaime is practicing his left-handed swordplay with Ser Ilyn, and when he gets knocked to his knees:

I would have done better to challenge Raff the Sweetling, with a whore upon my back, Jaime thought as he shook mud off his gilded hand. Part of him wanted to tear the thing off and fling it in the river. It was good for nothing, and the left was not much better. Ser Ilyn had gone back to the horses, leaving him to find his own feet. At least I still have two of those.

We know that Brienne survives the noose, we know she finds Jaime and there's good reason to assume she's sent to kill Jaime or, better yet, deliver him to Stoneheart.

I think after his encounter with UnCat it will be decided that Thoros will turn that gold hand into a real working gold hand, and that he will be sent to kill Cersei.

 

[Needle]

Hmmm? I do think Jaime is the Valonqar. I like the golden hand idea. I don't though think he will kill her if he is "sent" to do so. If he does it, it will be for his own reasons, not anyone else's. Just MHO!

 

[juleska]

Oh Jaime has plenty of reasons to kill Cersei, I think.

There were many mentions of the golden hand in AFFC and how useless it is. Cersei complained many times about his stump in ASOS. The whole golden hand idea seems kind of stupid and useless to Jaime unless GRRM intends to use it. If corpses can be reanimated by The Others, and if the red priests can glamour people to look like someone else and resurrect someone who'd been dead for days with her head nearly cut off.....seems more than reasonable they can turn a golden hand into a working hand. If that isn't the intention I don't know why GRRM even bothered with this distraction. Seems if Jaime was meant to be a one-handed knight then GRRM would've left him with that stump that Cersei hates so much.