The Valonqar

[Delran Stark]

If Robb was King in the North, then Arya is Queen. Robb is dead, Bran is dead, Sansa can't be Sansa right now, Rickon is dead, Jon is a *******, making Arys Queen in the North.

Robb has recognised Jon as his heir, remember?

 

[Koopa]

Maybe, who knows for certain
besides, if Jon chooses to accept another person as the real king of Westeros, Robb's degree will be nothing more then a rebel's dribble.

 

[Needle]

Robb has recognised Jon as his heir, remember?

Yes, I had forgotten this. Slight bump in my theory!

 

[Boaz]

I have two comments on Robb. First, he did not have a POV. Catelyn, King Robb's POV, did not witness Robb make this his official royal decree. We can assume that annointing Jon as his heir was Robb's plan, but did he actually get it done before Edmure's wedding?

Second, Robb was declared outlaw by the Lannisters. There was a bill of attainder against him. That means that Robb was legally stripped of all lands, titles, and incomes. That also means that all of his potential heirs were stripped of any ability to inherit anything from him. So unless the Blackfish and Jon march south, eliminate the Lannisters, slaughter all opposition, and set Jon up as king, then Robb's decisions (real or imagnined) are meaningless. But if Jon is able to militarily defeat the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, Robb's paper trail probably would not have been a major source of power and authority beyond the North and a few River Lords who detest the Lannisters.

My last comment regards Maester Aemon and Jon. He told Jon that the gods tested his vows three times, i.e. he was sorely tempted to leave the NW and attempt to assist his family, if not claim the Iron Throne outright. At least on one occassion (if not two), he was quietly offered the Crown by the Small Council.

Now we come to Jon. He's been tempted to leave the NW. He actually got south of Mole's Town once. If you count the story so far as one big temptation, then Jon (in comarison to Aemon) has two to go. If you count Eddard's death and Robb's Rebellion as one and Stannis' offer of Winterfell and Val as two, then Jon still has one temptation left. He's turned down serving as a captain to King Robb. He's turned down becoming Lord Stark. Will he turn down becoming King Jon?

 

[Tansy]

Robb wrote a decree in front of all the lords and Catelyn before reaching the Twins proclaiming Jon the heir to the throne in the North and legitimising his birth and had them all sign to witness it, it was when he commanded Cat to stay with Jason Mallister and outlines his plans to retake Moat Cailin with help from Howland Reed, I've just read that bit

If Jon bows the knee to Stannis (or another king) he will have to give up the rights to Winterfell, but until then he has the claim, but he is no longer a ******* Does this mean he is now Jon Stark?

Wouldn't Jon's sleeping with Ygritte and turning widling for a time count as a betrayal even if he was doing what Halfhand told him? To Jon it was a betrayal and he was sorely tempted to stay with ygritte?

 

[Koopa]

Tansy, you need to re-read that bit then, cause i pretty sure we don't actually see Robb putting his seal on the decree. We assume he did, based on his conversation with Catelyn. Not entirely the same thing.

And then there is the matter of it's worth.
Not only is Robb's authority in question, Jon joined the Night's Watch thus leaving behind his connection to house Stark.

 

[Delran Stark]

And then there is the matter of it's worth.
Not only is Robb's authority in question, Jon joined the Night's Watch thus leaving behind his connection to house Stark.

Actually....NO! The wall was built by a Stark and I think that each second or third or fourth and most bastards of the Starks served at the wall. What I mean to say is that each generation of Starks gave at least a member of the NW.

 

[Tansy]

It seemed pretty clear to me that the lords signed it for what it was worth, why would they refuse to? It was right at the end of the Cat chapter - I read it twice before I posted just to make sure I had the right jist, of course Jon would still need force to back up his claim, if he can't substantiate Robb's right to rule then it will all be worthless.

There was talk of sending 200 men to replace him at the wall but not sure the Knights Watch would let him go even with that, but then a King does not necessarily have to follow set precedent they usually just do what the hell they liek and issue a new royal decree

 

[Koopa]

Actually....NO! The wall was built by a Stark and I think that each second or third or fourth and most bastards of the Starks served at the wall. What I mean to say is that each generation of Starks gave at least a member of the NW.

doesn't change the fact that once you say the words you leave behind your house, your family. Deserting the wall means death. Robb knows this. Thatswhy he mentioned making the Night's Watch an offer they can't refuse so that they'll break their own rules. As said by tansy.

It seemed pretty clear to me that the lords signed it for what it was worth, why would they refuse to? It was right at the end of the Cat chapter - I read it twice before I posted just to make sure I had the right jist, of course Jon would still need force to back up his claim, if he can't substantiate Robb's right to rule then it will all be worthless.

Normally one would assume that Jon's name was put on the decree and the decree was signed and all that. 99% chance of that. But there is still that 1% left, and in GRRM's world sometimes this 1% is huge.

 

[Tansy]

ha maybe you have a point as it did seem like a done deed, but sometimes you can over analyse something, mayhap he felt it did not need spelling out or maybe it is the pivotal moment in the series lol

I guess all we know is Robb drafted a decree and asked the Lords to sign it then Cat left, not that he has many lords left and after the Twins even less

Must admit on my re-read the Red Wedding had very little impact on me, I was still expecting to be shocked even knowing what was to come, but the accounts from Cat and Arya were tamer than I remember, and so far it is only rumour about Grey Wind's head being attached to Robb's shoulders, but I have only just read than and not got to unCat yet, I think my imagination must have been in overdrive the first time I read it

 

[Koopa]

A fool gets killed by a madwoman and you think it tame...
Mayhaps Catelyn should have threatened to rape the bugger.
(On a side note: she did manage to give him a smile, which is quite noteworthy in such gruesome circumstances)

 

[Boaz]

I was just posting on the Dead Pool thread... and I had a thought. I was surmising if leader of the people on the Quiet Isle would survive and I realized that his title is Elder Brother. Could valonqar refer to a religious brother and not a sibling? What if Lancel takes holy vows? That would make him a novice priest... a younger brother. Or will the High Septon's champion be an acolyte... a younger brother?

 

[juleska]

Arya Underfoot suggested this on page 1 of this thread. This scenarion is certainly a possibility, especially if Tommen is forced to condem her to death after she broke the laws of the Gods. The newly armed and somewhat more influencial Faith will make sure Tommen respects these laws, even if it means putting his mother dearest to the sword. Now that would be poetic justice.

Wonder if Jaime would simply stand by and not intervene.

After everything that Cersei did to Tommen in AFFC, my money's on him. Nothing says it has to happen in the next book, could be the end of the series. Tommen has time to grow up into a surly teenager. Though I dearly hope that Cersei meets her demise before then.

 

[juleska]

Hey All-

I'm just re-readig AFFC now. Maggy prophecies that Cersei will be killed by the valonqar's pale hands wrapping around her throat. Now, since we're really here to nit-pick: Jaime could certainly use the golden hand to crush Cersei's throat, but can gold be considered pale?

I almost hope that it's Tyrion. He's got the least to lose and more reasons to hate her than anyone else.

You know I am on the last 40 pages of AFFC myself at the moment and I didn't pick up on the significance of the "pale hands" before. I'm thinking now that it will be a wight that gets her. They are pale and they enjoy choking people.

 

[juleska]

... "Will the king and I have children?" she asked.
"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."
The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."
​

I've always taken this to mean that our favorite golden haired queen will outlive all three of her children, though, I suppose, it could just imply two of them...

I refuse to accept that it could be Tyrion based mostly on my Cersei Is Always Wrong About Everything theorem. Jaime just makes so much narrative sense though, I'll be shocked if someone else does the deed.

Well doggone it, there goes my wight theory. It's her neck that's pale, not the valonqar's hands.

I don't think there's any reason the valonqar can't be a female. Genders are being bent left and right in this series. Arya has spent half her time on the run posing as a boy. Dany is, to me, clearly the "prince[ess] who was promised". Brienne is oft mistaken for a male. Loras and Renly are effeminate. Asha is more manly than any of her brothers were (yet still very much a woman). In a world where a crippled boy can become a wolf for a moment there's no reason we should expect something like a gender designation to remain fixed. I still think it'll be Tommen, though.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

After everything that Cersei did to Tommen in AFFC, my money's on him. Nothing says it has to happen in the next book, could be the end of the series. Tommen has time to grow up into a surly teenager. Though I dearly hope that Cersei meets her demise before then.

But Tommen has to die before Cersei croaks right? "gold will be their crowns and gold their shrouds..." (or whatever the actual wording is, I'm pulling that from memory)

 

[juleska]

As someone else mentioned, it strikes me as significant that the rest of the prophecy is in the common tongue whereas valonqar is in Valyrian. If GRRM is going to tell us that it means "little brother", why not just say "little brother" to begin with? I think there is something to those hypotheses that the word has been misinterpreted or is intentionally misleading.

Arya is in Braavos learning Valyrian.

 

[juleska]

But Tommen has to die before Cersei croaks right? "gold will be their crowns and gold their shrouds..." (or whatever the actual wording is, I'm pulling that from memory)

Yeah I'll admit that the Tommen theory isn't bulletproof. As for whether or not he "has to die" before her, that is just an interpretation and certainly not known. As you've rightly pointed out many times in this thread...Cersei is wrong about EVERYTHING!

Jamie is a better candidate, but that also seems too obvious....mostly I just want it to be Tommen because she has been so positively evil to him.

 

[juleska]

Syphon, I believe that valonqar literally means little brother. Jaime or Tyrion.

Unless you actually beleive one of my crazy ideas that Aerys fathered Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, Jon, and Dany... then Jon becomes Ceresei's valonqar.... and if you 1) take the concept that dragons are asexual, 2) remember just like how "The Prince that was promised" was mistranslated because the Valyrian word for prince is gender neutral meaning either prince or princess that maybe the same thing is happening here with valonqar... maybe it means "younger sibling", 3) think about how Cersei is also worried about how a younger and more beautiful queen will supplant her, and 4) click your heels three times and say "I wish it were so", then Dany also becomes Cersei's valonqar.

The biggest problem that I have with the theory that Dany is both the supplanting queen and the valonqar is that Dany does not kill anyone herself. She has "people" for that kind of messy business. And also dragons.

 

[Ursa major]

But Tommen has to die before Cersei croaks right? "gold will be their crowns and gold their shrouds..." (or whatever the actual wording is, I'm pulling that from memory)

The paragraph, from AFfC, is as follows:

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale throat and choke the life from you.

We're making assumptions. The main one is that all three of Cersei's children will die before her. But that isn't what it says.


What the prophecy does say is that:

• All three children will wear crowns, which suggests that Tommen will die before Myrcella. But someone has already tried to crown her once and another attempt might be made. (I'm assuming, for the moment, that Tommen does die first.)
• All will wear gold shrouds. Well if they've been monarchs and then die in circumstances that allows them a proper burial, they will have gold shrouds. Cersei doesn't have to be still alive at the time, though.
• That Cersei will drown in her own tears. Even the prophecy does not say that this is literal, otherwise how can the valonqar chke the life from her. And it may only take the death of Tommen to produce those tears, as it will confirm that the prophecy is coming true and that Myrcella's fate is sealed.

Given that GRRM is tricksy enough even in the real world of ASoIaF, we can't expect him to be playing with an entirely straight bat in a prophecy, particularly where events are suggested. (And we have been warned: I seem to recall Melisandre saying that the flames she uses to foresee events can be misread.)