Pure Speculation RE; A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Frey Slayer]

Not necessarily. Just look at the different ways people worship the same God/s in this world, and the different interpretations of religious texts and doctrines. I think they both worship Rh'llor, but in their own manner.

You took the words right out of my mouth Culhwch.

There is also the fundamental difference between Thoros and Mel's personalities and backgrounds. Mel is an actual practicing priestess who truly seems to believe what she is saying. Thoros was almost "out of the business" so to speak, at the start. He said something to the effect that he was just going through the motions and basically discovered by accident one day that he could breathe life back into people (Beric specifically).
So certainly they will differ in the strength and tenor of their convictions.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Due true. The game card is quite scary.

Another note. I've been thinking about Stannis. I remember reading a conversation Stannis had with Davos. Stannis, i guess, saw the future of his death. I think he said that he saw himself consumed by his crown or flames that melting the crown around him (something like that). What does everyone else think about his vision? Could this be a hint on what Dany does when she reaches the Wall? I'm clueless on this one, help.

Why do I not remember this?? Now I'm sad.

Another note. Does Melisandre of Asshai and Thoros of Myr march to the same god? ... How can ond priest give life will the other takes. It does not make sense to me. I could be overlooking something. But I'm think that one of the two is playing false. One of them follows the one that can not be named. Discuss.

Here's how I see it (and I think I've actually gone into this in other threads): It is often speculated the the Seven are merely different faces of the same god. I believe that the Seven and R'hllor are one and the same. That being said, Thoros and Melisandre are simply working for different faces of R'hllor.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Due true. The game card is quite scary.

Another note. I've been thinking about Stannis. I remember reading a conversation Stannis had with Davos. Stannis, i guess, saw the future of his death. I think he said that he saw himself consumed by his crown or flames that melting the crown around him (something like that). What does everyone else think about his vision? Could this be a hint on what Dany does when she reaches the Wall? I'm clueless on this one, help.

Actually, I took this to mean that Melissandre would betray & kill Stannis once she realised he wasn't Azor Ahai (sp?)

 

[Sword of the Morning]

Another note. I've been thinking about Stannis. I remember reading a conversation Stannis had with Davos. Stannis, i guess, saw the future of his death. I think he said that he saw himself consumed by his crown or flames that melting the crown around him (something like that). What does everyone else think about his vision? Could this be a hint on what Dany does when she reaches the Wall?

Why do I not remember this?? Now I'm sad.

I think the conversation is in A Storm of Swords. It has been a long time since I read through the books. I just start A Game of Thrones yesterday.

Thanks for everyone input thus far.

 

[Culhwch]

Here's how I see it (and I think I've actually gone into this in other threads): It is often speculated the the Seven are merely different faces of the same god. I believe that the Seven and R'hllor are one and the same. That being said, Thoros and Melisandre are simply working for different faces of R'hllor.

That's an interesting line of thought, Arya. I guess that would mean Melisandre's 'R'hllor' is akin to the Stranger - though even darker and more bloodthirsty - while Thoros' aspect is something equivalent to the Mother or the Father.

 

[Sword of the Morning]

Another note. I've been thinking about Stannis. I remember reading a conversation Stannis had with Davos. Stannis, i guess, saw the future of his death. I think he said that he saw himself consumed by his crown or flames that melting the crown around him (something like that). What does everyone else think about his vision? Could this be a hint on what Dany does when she reaches the Wall?

Why do I not remember this?? Now I'm sad.

I found it. Its on page 728 of A Storm of Swords (paper back Bantam edition), first paragraph.

 

[Boaz]

Time for my most recent ludicrous speculations!

We have been led to believe that there will be a showdown between R'hllor and the Other, right? But where does this information come from? From Melissandre! We are being led by the nose to assume in ASOIAF that Ice (The Other) is Evil and that Fire (R'hllor) is Good.

The others are evil. So we assume that The Other is evil... I assume he's evil (if he exists beyond Melissandre's propaganda). But Coldhands has shown us that there is also a good power of Ice. Melissandre claims to be good, but she keeps committing evil acts. Compare her to Thoros... he claims to be a man of many faults while doing good.

ASOIAF also relates (I assume) to the fortunes of the two great houses of Stark and Targaryen. Well, we know that some of the Targaryens (Fire) were evil (ie. Aerys and Viserys) while others are/were good (ie. Aemon, Rhaegar, Dany). And we know that some of the Starks (Ice) are/were good (ie. Ned, Robb, Bran, and Brandon) while others (ie. Catelyn, Rickard Karstark, Arya) are/were evil. Yes, I know I'm simplifying the people involved, but if you had to say good or evil for these characters what would you say?

All that to say this: I think that the divine elements of the story will expand and will include both good and bad for Ice and Fire.

 

[Duff_Omathum]

He is a song of ice and fire:

Ice + Fire
Stark + Targaryen

HE = male
I know of only one stark male of uncertain parantage...

 

[Boaz]

Duff, you're saying the whole thing is about Jon and that Dany, Bran, Tyrion, Stannis and the rest is all one giant red herring?

 

[Duff_Omathum]

No, I guess what I'm saying is that 'The Song of Ice and Fire' may well be about the Starks and Targaryens, but it might also be a single person and the union of the two houses.

I mean, someone's razor right?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I certainly hope that it doesn't all boil down to the existence of one important person. It's a little too Rand Al'Thor/Dragon Reborn for me. Snore.

If so, it has to be Hodor. He's quite a mysterious fellow.

 

[red_temple]

I think it's Dolorous Edd.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

I think it's Dolorous Edd.

Too obvious,

Thats why I think its Podrick Payne

 

[red_temple]

After thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that it is the ultimate evil triumvirate:

Moon Boy, Jinglebell (after he's revived by Thoros), and their ruthless leader: Patchface.

They are the ones pulling *all* the strings.

 

[MSBorba]

I think the theory goes like this... Joanna Lannister (Tywin's wife) was raped by Aerys when Tywin quit as Hand. Joanna, knowing that telling Tywin (who suffered no slights to House Lannister because Lannister's pay their debts) would mean war between Lannister and Targaryen, thought that the Lannister's would have been utterly destroyed and so she kept silent. Tyrion's fascination with Dragons and Fire, his mismatched eyes, and Tywin's refusal to acknowledge him are seen to be possible proofs.

I firmly believe that Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark are Jon's tue parents.

Tyrion, Jon & Dany....the three heads of the dragon. All three are very likeable and would please thousands if they end up ruling Westeros, re-establishing Targaryen rule!

 

[Sword of the Morning]

Tyrion, Jon & Dany....the three heads of the dragon. All three are very likeable and would please thousands if they end up ruling Westeros, re-establishing Targaryen rule!

I can understand Jon and Dany. Yet I have a hard time with Tyrion. I mean He is a Lannister, the same house that had Eila, Rhaenys, and Aegon killed and raped. Dany does know what the Lannisters did and that they betrayed the mad king. Dany's brother seemingly and endlessly talk about the usurpers doing this and that. I find it hard for Dany to open her arms and take in one of the usurper's son.

Now that I'm thinking of it how is Dany going to know that Jon is not a Stark. The Starks were one of the main houses that rebelled against the Targaryen. Unless Jon finds a book on his heritage (highly doubt that) or someone tells him who he came from (possible), Jon is going to continue thinking he's a Stark. I just cant see the last Targaryen having two of the usurpers's children around her.

 

[Sword of the Morning]

I had a thought cross my mind, its a bit fuzzy.

In a Storm of Swords, in one of Arya's pov the brotherhood without banners go this hill place. They seek councel from a really old lady that has some soothsaying abilities. The lady tell them were to find Catelyn. I know this in the southernish part of the realm but I remember the lady saying the Thoros that his powers wouldn't work here. I think she had some old powers from the old gods.

My question: Could that old lady be one of the surviving children of the forest? She did have powers of the old gods, i think.

I know this is quite random and has little description, but this thought is going to nag me endless, I just had to share it.

 

[Culhwch]

Now that I'm thinking of it how is Dany going to know that Jon is not a Stark.

Jon is a Stark, Sword... one way or another.

I don't think the Ghost of High Heart is one of the Children, but she does seem linked with them and their magic. I remember she mentions Summerhall (whether she was a servant or something, not sure), so she is also linked to the Targaryens and possibly has knowledge pertaining to Rhaegar, and *maybe* his relationship Lyanna.

 

[Raven]

Culhwch:

she is also linked to the Targaryens and possibly has knowledge pertaining to Rhaegar, and *maybe* his relationship Lyanna.

The Ghost of High Heart (as she's called) always asks Tom for the song about 'her Jenny'. This is Jenny of Oldstones. The song seems to be about a romance between Jenny and the Prince of Dragonflies. We know from other sources that the Prince of Dragonflies is the son of Aegon V (Egg), and is named after Dunk, and that he was at one point the Crown Prince. More, we know that this song and the PoD's death are somehow linked to Summerhall.

We don't know the exact relationship between the Ghost and Jenny: daughter? Granddaughter? Something else? Nor do we know what happened at Summerhall, except that it had something to do with dragons, it ruined the place, and Rhaegar knew about it and often went there to sing sad songs.

I look forward to finding out, though.

 

[Culhwch]

Many thanks for the clarification, Raven. I'm with you. So many side stories and tidbits to keep you interested - as if the main thrust wasn't enough....