Foundation & Empire

[chornedsnorkack]

Something I note:
I cannot remember any two-way phone conversation over ultrawave!
Sending live speech, and image, over ultrawave was possible. It was established in Bridle and Saddle, by the dramatic address of Prince Lefkin to Wienis.
Hardin had set up the TV set for reception alone - normally two-way video should have been possible.
But then the action of the book contains a lot of conversations - never a conversation over ultrawave or indeed phone on the same planet. News and messages travel by ultrawave - but then they arrive in basically telegram format.
However, at least telegrams arriving instantly is taken for granted.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

An important corollary:
Roman Empire, and all empires till 19th century, had practical need to allow their field commanders to initiate military action. Urgent news by courier or by sailing ship took weeks or months to arrive, and field commanders had to have the right to deal with an enemy attack or a rebellion without waiting for instructions from capital.
This changed in 19th century, when telegrams started to get through instantly. It was then reasonable to require the field commanders to report by telegram - and obey orders by telegram or at least argue against them by telegram rather than just do as they pleased.
Empire does have instant hyperwave communications, even if travel by multiple hyperspace jumps could take weeks. So Cleon could demand obedience from Bel Riose.
Why did Cleon, or House of Lords, permit the war in the first place, rather than simply say no?

 

[Ray McCarthy]

This changed in 19th century, when telegrams started to get through instantly.

Actually earlier. Napoleon used a massive Semaphore network, someone in Paris could know what was happening in southern Portugal in maybe less than an hour.
UK also had a network
Terry Pratchett's Discworld "Clacks" was real.

But basically true. Heliograph wasn't widespread.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Ducem Barr claims, in the end, that internal dissensions of Empire make "wars of conquest" impossible for Empire. A general who has sufficient force to defeat Foundation would be a hazard of rebellion and stopped by Emperor for that reason - and an Emperor who personally led army to Periphery would be rebelled against in his absence.

The problem is that this reasoning applies to any major campaign!

"And so I moulder. There are no rebellions to stamp down, and the border viceroys do not revolt lately, at least, not since His Imperial Majesty's late father of glorious memory made an example of Mountel of Paramay."

If Empire cannot sustain a war of conquest then Empire also cannot sustain a war to suppress a rebellion. A general who suppresses a rebellion needs command of a navy and gains glory which might allow him to rebel in his turn - like Siwenna´s viceroy suppressed rebellion of Wiscard but plotted rebellion of his own (though did not go through with it). Therefore how CAN Empire suppress major rebellions?

 

[Ihe]

that makes tons of sense. the empire was basically useless in every front and should've collapsed by its own weight sooner.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

How common were "books" in Empire? Specifically, for Bel Riose?

Riose looked after his host's departing figure, and his studied urbanity grew a bit uncertain at the edges. His education had been purely military; his experience likewise.

Was his military education formal schooling?

The general recognized the small black-ivroid boxes that lined the shelves to be books. Their titles were unfamiliar. He guessed that the large structure at one end of the room was the receiver that transmuted the books into sight-and-sound on demand. He had never seen one in operation; but he had heard of them.

Once he had been told that long before, during the golden ages when the Empire had been co-extensive with the entire Galaxy, nine houses out of every ten had such receivers - and such rows of books.

But there were borders to watch now; books were for old men. And half the stories told about the old days were mythical anyway. More than half.

Were the "books" pure video recordings readable only for a video player? Or was the receiver one that was capable of reading aloud human-readable books?
Books were for old men. Then what tools were used for boys? Ships and live voice?
A bit later, we hear that Bel Riose does possess some erudition:

"As a matter of fact," said Riose, "despite appearances, I don't. The key points which I garrison and fortify are relatively few, but they are carefully chosen. The result is that the force expended is small, but the strategic result great. There are many advantages, more than would ever appear to anyone who hasn't made a careful study of spatial tactics, but it is apparent to anyone, for instance, that I can base an attack from any point in an inclosing sphere, and that when I am finished it will be impossible for the Foundation to attack at
flank or rear. I shall have no flank or rear with respect to them.

"This strategy of the Previous Enclosure has been tried before, notably in the campaigns of Loris VI, some two thousand years ago, but always imperfectly; always with the knowledge and attempted interference of the enemy. This is different."

"The ideal textbook case?" Barr's voice was languid and indifferent.

Riose was impatient, "You still think my forces will fail?"

"They must."

"You understand that there is no case in military history where an Enclosure has been completed that the attacking forces have not eventually won, except where an outside Navy exists in sufficient force to break the Enclosure."

Barr refers to textbook cases. Did Riose´s military education employ textbooks? So much about books being for old men.
Was Riose´s education just school textbooks, or also books of military history not specifically for schools, or perhaps also historical fiction? Riose claims to know enough military history (of 20 000 years and 25 million worlds) to rule out existence of counterexamples.

What had been the format of these textbooks? A video player would have been obviously convenient for a lecturer in a military school presenting outdated historical examples to tens of boys (the alternatives would have been reading in his own voice, or requiring tens of books for boys to open at a correct page). Yet Riose has never seen such receiver, even in his textbook military education.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Note that the whole logic of frontal warfare is inapplicable, looking at the actual tactical capacities of Foundation and Empire ships:
First encounter:

The tiny ships had appeared out of the vacant depths and darted into the midst of the Armada. Without a shot or a burst of energy, they weaved through the ship-swollen area, then blasted on and out, while the Imperial wagons turned after them like lumbering beasts. There were two noiseless flares that pinpointed space as two of the tiny gnats shriveled in atomic disintegration, and the rest were gone. The great ships searched, then returned to their original task

Foundation ships were faster, but they were not invulnerable. Apparently, they were faster than Imperial ships, but not faster than the missiles Imperial ships fired, nor immune to these missiles.
Later on, Bel Riose comments the capacities of Trader ships:

Yet no trader since has been captured. No trade ship but has had the speed to escape at choice. No trade ship but has had a screen that could take all the beating a light cruiser could give it, should it choose to fight. And no trader but has fought to death when occasion warranted. Traders have been traced as the leaders and instigators of the guerilla warfare on occupied planets and of the flying raids in occupied space.

Trader ships have nuclear shields, which can be overwhelmed by the heavy Imperial warships, but not by "light cruisers".
When Devers does escape:

Devers said grimly, "Hold tight, Barr - and let's see if they've got a ship that can match my speed."

He knew they hadn't!

We lost the scuppers long ago. Space! With the blind jumps we took through hyperspace, it's lucky we didn't land up in a sun's belly. They couldn't have followed us even if they outranged us, which they didn't.

No ship of Empire, not even the lightest and fastest ones, can pursue a Foundation ship. And only the bigger ships, heavier than a "light cruiser" can defeat a Foundation ship when they do meet.

It follows that surrounding Foundation is completely pointless and counterproductive. A net of Imperial ships across space might detect the passage of a raiding Foundation ship, but the Imperium ships scrambled to intercept will then be unable to intercept a Foundation ship raiding into "occupied space". All that surrounding Foundation does is spread Imperial navy thin.

 

[Ihe]

maybe Foundation didn't have that many "fast ships" to spare.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

maybe Foundation didn't have that many "fast ships" to spare.

Bel Riose tells us that all Merchants were fast enough to flee Imperial Navy.

 

[Ihe]

Well then, if you know yourself outmaneuvered, sorrounding Foundation's homeworld (and presumably base of operations of the merchants) is a good way to cut their wings a tad. If any merchant ship wanted to break the blockade, they would first need to travel from the planet all the way to Bell's forces. Even if Bell's ships couldn't chase the merchants, they could still shoot at them, and you yourself said that Foundation ships could NOT outrun their missiles. So, to break free of the blockade, Foundation ships had to basically do the "man running across an open field" bit before making it to the blockade. They'd be eating space dust long before reaching Bell's ships, let alone reaching freedom. Bell's forces wouldn't even have to move. It would be target practice for them. Surrounding the planet gave Bell complete line of sight over the whole planet into anyone departing from it, while at the same time limiting the one enemy factor he lacked in comparison to Foundation: mobility.

 

[Ihe]

The strong will beat the fast if the first can grab a hold of the second and stop him from moving. And Bell did just that, but at the planetary scale. He had a tight grip on Foundation and severely reduced their mobility's effectiveness by reducing their field of action.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Now, continuing to the Mule...

Toran looked at the city with her. The houses were two stories high for the most part, and of the smooth vein rock indigenous to the region. The spires of the Foundation were missing, and the colossal community houses of the Old Kingdoms - but the smallness was there and the individuality; a relic of personal initiative in a Galaxy of mass life.

Why was personal initiative a "relic" in Galaxy, especially considering the political disunity?

 

[Ihe]

I see that as just waxing poetic.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Who did House of Barr consist of?

"I have seen friends die." The old man's hands were limp in his lap and his eyes were closed. "Are you married?"

Devers said, "Traders don't marry."

"Well, I have two sons and a nephew. They have been warned, but - for reasons - they could take no action. Our escape means their death. My daughter and my two grandchildren have, I hope, left the planet safety before this, but even excluding them, I have already risked and lost more than you."

Two sons, a daughter and two grandchildren make sense for a man who was a young soldier 45 years ago.
But a nephew?
A son of Ducem´s brothers or sister. Yet he listed their fate:

By the orders of that viceroy my father became a fugitive pauper, my brothers martyrs, and my sister a suicide.

His father Onum had told the same story 45 years ago to Mallow.
But Onum did not mention the survival of any grandson. Well, he did not have a confirmation of his daughter´s death either, after five years.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

One James Nicoll is reviewing a lot of science fiction - including Foundation, back in October 2012.
A lot of good points I had also noticed.
http://james-nicoll.livejournal.com/tag/foundation
Any comments?

 

[Ihe]

interesting, will give it a look.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

For example, Mule:
http://james-nicoll.livejournal.com/4002026.html#comments
A nice observation:

they meet a man on the run from the Mule, a man maintaining a low profile by performing in public.

Good point. Although, as per his cover story, Magnifico has no means of support other than performing. But yes, it would have been safer to flee with some cash.
But a general point of Foundation series is absence of women, not just generally (there are women present, like Bayta and Licia) but where logically to be expected.
Bayta may be the first woman protagonist in Foundation. But now we are seeing a family that matters.
Toran´s father is 59, and 35 year older than his son´s wife.
Franssart never settled down to any place - or any woman - until 6 years ago when Bayta was 18.
All the time, Franssart should have been an absentee father for Toran, off chasing other women. It should have been Toran´s mother who settled down and raised him.
We never hear any explanation of what became of Toran´s mother. She, and her siblings rather than Fran´s, should have been the family that was there for Toran.

 

[Tim Murray]

So I needed something to read on the plane and they didn't have any Pratchett - so for light reading I picked up the second in the Foundation series, Foundation & Empire, as I'd already read the first instalment and reasonably enjoyed it.

Like the second one much more - wasn't entirely surprising (cf, The Mule) but it was nice to see how The Foundation was being overshadowed by political elements, and falling into degenerative political processes.

It's written simply and easily enough to tell a story, and tell a universe, without having to dedicate 1000 pages to follow the intricate daily lives of any mentioned sub-characer (what a relief!).

Will probably look to order the third and fourth pretty soon - just blew my birthday money, so will need to be careful on the budgeting and maybe wait to later.

Still, Foundation is again on my reading list, and looking forward to reading more.

The prequels are good too. They lay out the history of how difficult it was to develop the science.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

To continue - next howler:

Excellence, that is true. But this history you mention became inevitable only after we had fought desperately for over a year. The inevitable victory we won cost us half a thousand ships and half a million men. Excellence, Seldon's plan helps those who help themselves.

Can you see how absurd his numbers are?

 

[Tim Murray]

To continue - next howler:


Can you see how absurd his numbers are?

War is hell, the bigger the fire, the more the casualties. A true intergalactic war might have those numbers.