SPOILERS: Theory on Jon

I said:
Argh!! Sansa!!
Click to expand...
God no! I mean, I'm willing to give the girl a second, third, millionth chance, but I highly doubt that she'd be the third head of the dragon.

A woman would be good, though. Arya? :D

As for the Lannister line, I can't say I'm in favor of them. I like Jaime and Tyrion, but their other relatives are awful.
 
Tommen is sweet but so far he's pretty much a non-entity in the whole series, except to serve as a pawn...

Some good may come of him if Ser Kevan really manages to banish Cersei from her position of power, but I can see him becoming conflicted, torn between his loyalty to his mother and the influence Joffrey may have had on him when they were little on the one hand, and his inside goodness on the other...and that sometimes makes for bad choices...
 
Never mind Tommen... what about Myrcella?

She doesn't seem to have inherited as much of her mother's nature as might be expected, after all. I think Myrcella has the potential to become a popular Lannister character.
 
Tommen and Myrcella aren't bad kids at all, they're just... uninteresting. They don't seem to be very bright. Hopefully Myrcella will learn a thing or three in Dorne.


PS- Anyone think it likely that Tyrion has any children anywhere?
 
I'd advoided this thread cause of it's daunting size, but I just finished reading the hundred-odd posts and wanted to add some things about the various theories floating around in here.

In relation to the whole Rhaegar-Lyanna thing, I've been wondering about the timeframe. How long did Robert's rebellion last? I think it was a year or so, but I couldn't say for sure. And was it sparked by Rhaegar's 'kidnapping' of Lyanna? When and where did this happen? That's something that has never been mentioned, as far as I can remember. I know Aerys's execution of Lord Rickard and Brandon was also a factor in the rebellion - were they at King's Landing in response to Lyanna's kidnapping? The rebellion seemed to come to an end at the Tower of Joy, with Lyanna dying - presumably giving birth to Jon. If it was a year from go to woe it would mean she fell prenant three months into the war and after being kidnapped (not earlier, as you'd assume were she being raped at Rhaegar's will). That would also mean Robert believed Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar for twelve straight months - which would certainly account for his Targaryen anger issues. I'm not sure what I'm getting at here, just something in the way it unfolded and the timeframe niggles at the back of my mind. Was hoping someone else might be able toscratch it...

That Rhaegar loved Lyanna is probably true. Have just started rereading the series, and in Dany's first chapter she mentions Rhaegar dying at the Trident 'for the woman he loved' - and I'm guessing she didn't mean Elia. And this info had to come from either Viserys or Raymun Darry, either of whom would probably know Rhaegar's feelings (the Darry's seemed pretty close to the Targaryens). And then there's the bit at the tourney at Harrenhal - an event that seems at the heart of a lot of things. Whether she loved him back? Ned 'had lived his lies for fourteen years' and this I think is probably the chief one.

I was really keen on the Rhaegar and Lyanna as Jon's parents theory for a long time, but I've started to go cold on it. Not sure why. Just a feeling I get - seems a little obvious for Martin. What of Ashara Dayne, whom Catelyn thought was Jon's mother, and Wylla, who Robert (and I think Edric Dayne) believed to be Eddard's other love? Convenient lies to cover Jon's true parentage, or the truth? The timeframe of Ned and Ashara being Jon's parents also confounds me (did nine months pass between the time Ned bought her Dawn and when she threw herself off the cliff? Catelyn must have had good reason to think so...).

But something someone else mentioned on this thread (sorry, I can't remember who - it was a good hour or so ago now I read it) started a new thought in my mind. They said the Daynes were descended from Targaryens from the Blackfyre line, which would mean that if Ned and Ashara were Jon's true parents, he'd still have Targaryen blood... It would also account for another problem I had - why Jon had no Targaryen traits - the silver hair or violet eyes, which, if he were the son of Rhaegar and directly in the Targaryen line, he'd probably have. I think Martin would take perverse pleasure in making us think R+L=J and then springing the truth - truth that he revealed in the first hundred pages.

Another theory I was toying with was that Aegon might not be dead - that the baby might have been switched before the Lannisters took King's Landing. After all, the poor thing had his head dashed against the nearest wall, so positive identification would have been a problem. Where he'd be now, I couldn't say - but the Dayne thing got me thinking again. The Daynes are bannermen to Dorne. Elia was a princess of Dorne. My question - how old is Edric Dayne? And what role is he going to play?

Wow, that was a long post. My apologies... but I'd love to here anyone else's opinions on these matters. Though mostly I just wish A Feast of Crows would come out...
 
Aye mate... a mouthful. Questions I ponder myself. However, it has gotten to the point for me that I just want the next one to come and to stop speculating.
 
Culhwch. That is quite a good point on the time lines.Must admit that I have been putting quite a bit of thought into this one which is quite difficult with no official birth dates. You have given some good points to ponder.I will probably implode trying to figure this out but it should be fun.expect my response in say 10 yrs or when Martin finishes the series,whichever is sooner.I will not be holding my breath.
 
Culhwch: I can help you sort out some stuff, but GRRM is deliberately vague about dates and distances. This is because he doesn't want to be caught out by fanatic readers, mainly.

The sequence of events at the start of the Rebellion is that

1. Lyanna vanishes.

2. Rumours begin that she was kidnapped by Rhaegar.

3. Hearing this rumour, Brandon Stark rides to KL with some friends and demands that Rhaegar 'come out and die'. Aerys takes Brandon et al. captive, and demands their fathers come to KL to answer for them.

4. Rickard Stark and the other fathers come to KL. Aerys executes him and Brandon, as well as Brandon's friends, as traitors.

5. Aerys demands that Jon Arryn hands over Ned and Robert or executes them himself. (Presumably the two are in the Vale at this point.) Jon refuses.

6. Robert, Jon and Ned call their banners and ride to war against Aerys.

From Lyanna's disappearance to the ToJ scene is actually probably more than a year. Lyanna disappears sometime before the Rebellion 'officially' begins, and the ToJ scene happens at the very end of the war, when Robert has already taken the throne, and after Ned has relieved the siege of Storm's End. This is probably some months after the battle on the Trident where Rhaegar dies.

I don't think R+L=J is particularly obvious: nor is it 'too obvious' for GRRM. Most readers I know don't get it, even after three books of assorted clues. More to the point, the alternative explanation (that Jon is Ned's ******* by either Ashara or Wylla) is actually pretty hard to fit into the timeline - though not impossible. We have a fairly good idea of Ned's movements during the Rebellion, but not Ashara's or Wylla's: they could have been near Ned at the appropriate time. Though since both were on the 'Targaryen' side, that's hard to explain.

Targaryen traits have been shown (in The Hedge Knight) to be recessive under the right conditions - Baelor Breakspear had neither silver hair nor purple eyes.

Oh, and rumour has it AFFC will be out this summer.
 
The more I think about it, the more I feel uneasy about the theory that Lyanna and Rhaegar were lovers, and that Jon was the product. Or, should I say, I find it hard to accept, given how things turned out. As Lyanna was a Stark, honorbound and proud, I really don't think that she would have been selfish enough to simply hide out in a tower and have a love child while the rest of the nation bled. I think she would have realized her folly and come out of hiding, maybe even joined the war against Aerys for killing her brother and father.
 
Culhwch said:
Another theory I was toying with was that Aegon might not be dead - that the baby might have been switched before the Lannisters took King's Landing. After all, the poor thing had his head dashed against the nearest wall, so positive identification would have been a problem. Where he'd be now, I couldn't say - but the Dayne thing got me thinking again.
Click to expand...
Along similar lines, (though I might add that I do believe the babe was killed, why hide the babe and not the little girl?), anyone interested in playing spot-the-cameo-Targaryen? There's a few characters whose traits seem suspiciously Targaryen to me :) For example, one of the whores at Chataya's, Manei I think? There's a few that pop in...

On the Lyanna/ Jon thing, as I said before I'm not %100 confident that Rhaegar is Jon's father, but I do believe that Lyanna is his mother... Can't think of how it all fits together though...


Something no one seems to have brought up is the whole thing concerning the follower's of R'hllor and their belief in the return of Azor Ahai (or whatever their hero is, the guy that tempered his burning sword in the belly of his wife). I'm just a bit curious to hear people's thoughts on this topic. Melisandre is completely and utterly convinced Stannis is this dude, trying to wake dragon's from stone etc etc. Dany to me seems to fit the prophecy much better... all that about the dragon star, emmerging from smoke and ashes, waking dragon's from stone etc. But then Berric Dondarrion seems to be someone significant as well, though perhaps he is nothing special, burning sword aside...

anyways, just some thoughts.
 
I hear you Blue Mythril. Another thing I keep thinking about is the Children. Will they appear sometime in this series?
 
Arya: Starks are not all 'honourbound and proud', you know. ;) Ned recalls that Lyanna, as well as Brandon, had the 'wolf blood', and that it led both of them to an early end.

This reference to 'having the wolf blood' seems to indicate Starks who were not like Ned, but passionate and wilful, impetuous and fierce. Ned brings it up when speaking to Arya: he says that this is her nature too. He explicitly compares Arya to Lyanna. Don't you think a teenage version of Arya might have run off with Rhaegar, and damn the consequences?

Blue Mythril: you need to be careful about drawing conclusions. ;) GRRM has stated that silver hair and purple eyes can be traits of Valyrian blood generally, not necessarily Targaryen blood specifically. We know that some of the nobility of Westeros have Valyrian blood, and it seems reasonable that some of the whores in King's Landing might do too.
 
The idea of predominant genetic appearances have come up more than once in this book. Baratheon, Lannister, Stark, and Targeryan to name the most mentioned. There is something here. Or is there not. I believe it is both. I believe the author is driving us somewhere with this as it has been brought up more than once. I believe that the Targeryan traits shall remain strong... and the Baratheon as well... there involvement outside of marriage, now that's a toss-up. Both families could have gone outside of marriage to produce bastards; the only question in my mind is the predominance of Stark genes.
 
Raven said:
Targaryen traits have been shown (in The Hedge Knight) to be recessive under the right conditions - Baelor Breakspear had neither silver hair nor purple eyes.
Click to expand...

I don't know - the one Targaryen whose true identity needs to be hidden just happens to be born with none of the Targaryen traits? That's one hell of a coincidence. Plus, Stark traits can also be shown to be recessive - more so than Targaryens. Of Ned's five trueborn children, only one has Stark traits, the others all take after their mother. That's eighty percent recessive. So I'm sticking with Ned as Jon's father, or at the least, his father not being Rhaegar.
 
Culhwch - see other thread for my comments on this. One of Rhaegar's two children didn't look like him, for one thing: for another, 'dominance' and 'recessiveness' in Westeros work basically as GRRM wants them to work.
 
Aye the only time gene dominance has been referred to was in Targeryan (incest) and Baratheon situations. Nobody ever talks about Targaryan genes outside of that nor Baratheon outside of Robert.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
L Extremely Crackpot Theory: Darkstar/Aegon Targaryen (Spoilers) George R R Martin 1
G Jon Snow Theory revised -- ADWD Spoilers George R R Martin 14
Young stormlord Crackpot theory: I have found Littlefinger's grandfather [spoilers] George R R Martin 5
juleska A new theory (I think) about Coldhands (Spoilers up thru ADWD) George R R Martin 22
The Imp New crackpot theory- Arya (ADWD SPOILERS) George R R Martin 26

Similar threads


Back
Top