SPOILERS: Theory on Jon

[Raven]

No, Culhwch is right. GRRM has confirmed that the three in that vision are Rhaegar, Elia, and Aegon. Moreover, Aegon cannot be Jon because he is too old.

 

[LadyFel]

The only reference I sort of linked with Jon in that scene was when Rheagar says 'There is another, and his is the Song of Ice and Fire'...I just keep going back to that statement and can't help thinking it's got to be Jon...If he was really R&L's son, there's part of me that thinks Rheagar sees it almost as a duty as well as a pleasure to link up with someone from house Stark...?

 

[Culhwch]

Going back to the passage in question, it can't be Jon because Rhaegar actually says it's Aegon. And LadyFel, the actual quote is:

'He [Aegon] has a song... He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.'

And then goes on to say:

'There must be one more... The dragon has three heads.'

You must have muddled up the two... But either way, the poppet ain't Jon.

 

[LadyFel]

And then goes on to say:

'There must be one more... The dragon has three heads.'

Dats der bunny...my mistake, I meant this quote refers to Jon...

 

[Blue Mythril]

Going back to the passage in question, it can't be Jon because Rhaegar actually says it's Aegon. And LadyFel, the actual quote is:

'He [Aegon] has a song... He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.'

And then goes on to say:

'There must be one more... The dragon has three heads.'

You must have muddled up the two... But either way, the poppet ain't Jon.

See that's the thing which threw me... It's all well and good, except Aegon's very much dead...

Well, I guess we'll just have to find out for ourselves seeing as Feast is finally finished

 

[Darken Rahl]

Ok, I gotta put in a vote for Tyrion as the third head of the Dragon. With the possible exception of Littlefinger he is the most adept at plotting and innovation, and his parentage could be in question. He is almost always overlooked for his deformities, but nevertheless seems to draw others to him. His sense of timing in his planning and how to read others is perfect.

Also, when travelling with Jon to the Wall, Tyrion is reading a book about Dragons, and makes the comment to Jon that he dreamed of having a dragon of his own. That he used to stare into the flames of fires for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sounds to me like GRRM is slipping in a hint there. Didn't Dany have some rather similar dreams?

Just a little food for thought and comments.....

 

[Faceless Woman]

Nice one, Darken. Don't forget that he and Jon struck up quite a friendship.
Also, the direwolves don't like him, even though he is considered a 'good' character. I thought this was just a red herring, to keep us unsure of his loyalties, but there was a passage somewhere with Summer growling at the hallucination of a Dragon in the sky...
Probably irrelevant. Just a thought.
Of course, my favourite candidate for Third Head is Brown Ben, who has Targ blood. Which is the dragon who liked him? He'll ride that one.

 

[MemmoN]

I was actually really lucky to be able to sit in at George's reading at CBC in Vancouver and meet the man. I was able to ask him a couple questions regarding a dream and a promise, he was understandably evasive but he wore a sly grin in his tell as I walked with him. He eventually found the washroom and I had to leave him be. I bet he would make a great poker player.

 

[ras'matroi]

sorry my computer worked the wrong way

 

[Boaz]

This is pure coincidence that I'm posting on this thread one year to the day since the last post.

Charming Serpent and viZion got me to thinking in Simple Question about Rhaegar. Specifically his personal qualities. In AGOT through Robert's opinion, Rhaegar is portrayed as a villain. Viserys says he's a hero, but since Viserys is portrayed as a villain and Aerys the Mad King was their father, Viserys' opinion of Rhaegar is discounted. Subsequently, Jorah, Jaime, Barristan, Aemon, and Cersei give their opinions of Rhaegar. In their eyes he's handsome, gentle, intelligent, dilligent, merciful, loving, faithful, and moral. He's made out to be a rennaissance man, a polymath if you will.

So how do we reconcile the noble Rhaegar with the dastardly Rhaegar? Well, we pretty much discount Robert's view by claiming that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar and gave birth to his son, Jon. Now even though Rhaegar was passionate about the prophecy of Ice and Fire, was he committed to it enough to steal away the daughter of one of the most powerful lords in the realm and plunge the nation into civil war? Was Rhaegar faithless enough to commit adultery? Or was he hard hearted enough to shame Elia by marrying Lyanna and becoming a bigamist? From what we know of Rhaegar's character, I think the answer to all of these questions is no. The Rhaegar that Barristan, Jaime, and Aemon knew was not a kidnapper, a rapist, an adulterer, nor a bigamist.

But if Rhaegar did not have sexual relations with Lyanna, then who did?

If the following suggestion has been discussed before, forgive me.

What if Aerys II, the Mad King, is Jon's father? What if Aerys raped Lyanna and Jon is the result?

I've suggested before that mayhaps Aerys raped Joanna Lannister and begat Tyrion. This would have been nine years or so before Robert's rebellion. Mayhaps Aerys was still somewhat sane back then would not have raped her. My thought was based upon the idea that Aerys raped Rhaella, his own sister-queen. But that was near the end of his life when he made bad decision after bad decision. At the end he was in failing mental health... and this is the time when Lyanna conceived.

Fact: When Lyanna disappeared, Lord Rickard and Benjen were in the North, Eddard was in the Vale, Brandon was on his was to Riverrun to marry Catelyn, and Lyanna was in King's Landing.

Fact: Brandon and his friends (presumably his wedding party) raced to King's Landing and demanded Rhaegar be brought to justice.

Fact: Aerys jailed them all for treason. He then summoned their fathers. Finally he had all of his captives put to death.

The journey from Winterfell to King's Landing is not a quick one. Even travelling by ship from White Harbor takes some time. So where was Rhaegar during the time it took word from KL to reach Winterfell and then for Rickard to travel to KL?

Fact: As Rhaegar left for the Trident, he told Jaime that he was going to make changes in the rule of the realm when he got back.

It had to be obvious to Rhaegar that his father's policies and actions would soon lead to a mass rebellion of all the lords and the complete annihilation of House Targaryen if Aerys were not stopped.

Try to think about this in terms of Rhaegar planning a coup d'etat as soon as he put down Robert's Rebellion. During his absence, Rhaegar may have been among the Martells and Tyrells courting their support in assisting Aerys to abdicate. He may at this time have laid the plans for getting baby Aegon out of KL... just in case.

Fact: Rhaegar and Lyanna had respect and admiration for one another. Nothing further can be inferred.

Rhaegar crowned her Queen of Beauty, but that does not mean he was an adulterer. This gesture is too obvious. If you were going to have an affair, would you announce it in front of your wife, your family, your friends, and the entire nation? No, you would not. Rhaegar may have crowned her out of respect for her bravery and convictions rather than lust for her.

This hypothesis then says that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna. In her time of trouble, the only person she could turn to was the son of the man who raped her. Rhaegar knew that any confrontation with Aerys as things stood, would result in the deaths of himself, Lyanna, Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon. So he rescued her. He knew that Aerys' pride was one of his weakness, so he told Aerys that Lyanna's ******* child would be TPTWP. Thus Rhaegar was able to take Lyanna out of KL with three Kingsguard.

So what if Aerys had taken Lyanna one night? Would the Kingsguard have stopped him? What if Aerys told them that she was willing? Whent, Darry, Hightower, Martell, Dayne, Selmy and Lannister were the names of the seven White Cloaks. None of them is a Stark. None of them is from the North.

Fact: The Kingsguard protect the royal family.

Why were three of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy? Would three of them have been there to guard the Crown Prince's *******? Obviously they were ordered there. Three were sent with Rhaegar, the King's first born, to the Trident. One was kept in KL to protect Aerys from Tywin Lannister. None were sent with Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone. Did Aerys mislike seven year old Viserys that much? Mayhaps Aerys was aware of the prophecy of the Prince That Was Promised and the song of Ice and Fire also. This might explain sending three Kingsguard with his heir and three with his "Prince That Was Promised."

Benefits of A+L=J...

Targaryens married brother to sister when they could. If R+L=J, then Dany is Jon's aunt. If A+L=J, then Dany is Jon's sister.

Melisandre wants the blood of a king or a son of a king. She's had Edric Storm, Mance's son, and Aemon all slip through her fingertips. All of them were sons of kings. But if A+L=J, then Jon is also the son of a king and not merely the brother of one.

Promise me, Ned. What does this cryptic whisper mean? Does it mean hide Jon from Robert's wrath? Does it mean bury me at Winterfell? Does it mean don't tell anyone that I loved Rhaegar? Could it mean don't let my son become like his father?

Jon was raised like a Stark. He was sent off to the Wall, thus losing all claims of inheritance. It seems this is just what happened to Aemon, also. Aemon could never be a threat to the throne. Jon could never be a threat to the throne, young girls at KL, or the nation.

Summary:
Aerys II was insane. Rhaegar was a noble young man. Lyanna was high spirited and brave. Aerys raped Lyanna. Rhaegar rescued Lyanna. A+L=J. Jon is Dany's sister.

I know this is lengthy. I know it's not the best organized post. Support it, shred it, make of it what you will.

 

[DeannaBelle]

I, too, was thinking these things the other day.

Also, for a Targ, it's not so much infidelity as polygamy. Didn't the first Targaryen come with his two sister-brides?

I suck at my reread. I am only the first Dany chapter of the whole series. I am not one to reread entire books, only entire paragraphs.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Cersei was how many years older than Tyrion? And Rheagar was how many years older than Cersei?

What if Rhaegar was not intereste din Cersei but interested in her monther, Joanna?...

 

[DeannaBelle]

Okay, that was all nonsense on my last posts.

Anyway, remember when Tyrion goes out to welcome the Martells, and he is told about their visit to him when Tyrion was a baby? Remember how there were rumors of tyrion having a tail and other dragon-like deformities? Well, that reminded my of the "thing" that Dany first birthed, with the scales and the tail. remember the Martells want the Targs on the throne. So, they must have been looking, even then, for the promise of magic to return. They were looking in every direction, even Tyrion's.

 

[Fourth Hunter]

I like it Boaz, seeing as I still feel that R+L=J is insubstantial. However...

Would Aerys, an old man, have been able to overpower and rape Lyanna, who, if we assume that she is the Knight of the Laughing Tree, is fairly strong? Also, why, in the name of all that is holy, would Aerys choose to rape somebody from a well-connected and powerful family, to inseminate with the Prince that was Promised? The Starks are wardens of the North and he should have known that Eddard was the ward of another of his wardens, Jon Arryn. Even though Aerys was mad, I don't feel that he was that deeply dumb.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Open AGOT to Danys first POV....

When she recollects about Westeros...what little she knows...she ponders...."and Rhaegar fighting, ...and dying on the Trident for the woman he loved..."

Clearly Dany isnt talking about Elia and unless its some sort of obfuscation within obfuscation then Rhaegar at least loved Lyanna.

 

[DeannaBelle]

Open AGOT to Danys first POV....

When she recollects about Westeros...what little she knows...she ponders...."and Rhaegar fighting, ...and dying on the Trident for the woman he loved..."

Clearly Dany isnt talking about Elia and unless its some sort of obfuscation within obfuscation then Rhaegar at least loved Lyanna.

Yes, I just reread Dany's first chapter and read that line, as well.

Here's the problem: I don't believe that Dany and Viserys would have known about Lyanna.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Well it makes no sense for it to be Elia, because she's mentioned elsewhere in that same paragraph as clearly a different person...

So then who...if not Lyanna who you exclude, and Elia who I interpret the paragraph to exclude....is Dany/George referring to?

 

[DeannaBelle]

I think that it was Lyanna, however, I don't believe that's to whom Dany was referring, although Geroge was. I think Viserys was still young, and maybe he, as well as eeryone else, misinterpreted the true events. Also, Dany has no first-hand memory of what happened.

So, it was very possibly Lyanna, but the characters would probably not have known that.

 

[DeannaBelle]

I take that back. Everyone knew Rheagar hasd Lyanna, just not that she was pregnant. I suppose his family members must have known he loved her.

 

[Fourth Hunter]

We're accepting Dany's romanticized views of her brother as support now?