SPOILERS: Theory on Jon

[erickad71]

There is nothing wrong with self-editing. Emotions and passion are most welcome as well. It's derogatory language used for no reason other than shock that is frowned upon.

It can be hard to read tone through writing...so if you are joking about something you could always use the smilies that are available.

 

[Blue Mythril]

Ok, I’m gonna apologise up front for how long this is. I just got so excited by this topic and these books (which I’m currently re-reading for the umpteenth time) that I just had to start typing my post as I read…

But we don't know that Lyanna was raped. All we have are Ned's memories...and all he has mentioned is the promise he made to her on her death bed. He never reveals any anger towards Rhaegar, which he surely would have if he thought his sister was raped by him.

Might I also add, I know its obvious, but a bed of blood involving a woman sounds to me to me like childbirth. So for me its obvious that Lyanna at least died in childbirth

If you think about it, nowhere in the books so far is there any mention of any serious misdeeds by Rhaegar

noticed that too..

The only one who derides him is Robert Baratheon (ok, and those around him), the question is WHY...I assume someone told him a 'decorated' version of what happened, knowing he wouldn'r stop to question the truth of the matter because it gave him an excuse to start a rebellion...Eddard keeps remembering his promise whenever Robert rails about the Targaryens, it has to be connected...

That or he just sees what he wants to see.

I think I'm pretty convinced that Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Another question: is what will happen when/if Dany and Jon meet?

Depends on how risque GRRM wants to be. Logically, physical union between the two would make utter sense as a device to conclude plot - but then you're in realms of incest, and despite ancient historical precedents, it's possibly too taboo a subject for the commercial form of his work to dare touch upon.

So I expect they'll just emotionally connect (after fighting a bit), before Jon (leading the remaining knights and armies of the Seven Kingdoms), and Daenerys (leading her dragons and a countless legion of Drogo's riders), join together in a desperate battle to overcome what should have, by then, have become an utter swarm of "Others" across the continent.

Too clichéd I think. In my mind its gonna be more a political union, the whole Ice and Fire thing. Between them, Jon and Dany, perhaps you could include Stannis and Mellisandre in this mix, are the key to fighting the white walkers and the threat from the north. I don’t think it’ll be so simple as an “emotional” or lovers union.

The BIG problem is that Eddard took Lyanna's secret to his grave. Who can convincingly reveal Jon's identity - not simply to him, but also Daenerys?

Howland Reed, perhaps the Dragons. Has anyone else noticed that both Dany and the Starks are linked to mythological animal things. I know it doesn’t mean anything significant, but I think that’s one of the reasons why I like their characters so much, they’re unique.

If he was able to write in and have us accept the scenes between Jaime and Cersei, as well as the fact that all three royal children are their offspring, I don't put anything beyond him any more...

I don’t know about you, but it seems to me like the incest between Cersei and Jaime is supposed to be an indication of how screwed up they are. That extends to the Targaryens and the mental problems they developed. I think that extends to the dragons as well, the last dragons born on Dragonstone were stunted and deformed. The Targaryen reign needed to be shaken up.

I have a feeling this is also connected with Dany's apparent inability to bear any more children - the whole idea of a union between Jon and Dany is sort of mystical, would her womb finally recover?

That or it could give Jon a way to get out of his vows, you know, father no children… But still… Eew >.<

Mind you...Dany and Jon aren't just half-siblings, she's also his AUNT...

Are they siblings at all then?

I don't actually think that Rhaegar raped Lyanna and that the relationship was consensual because when Ned seems think of him rather favourably. We all know how touchy he is about honour. If Rheagar had violated his own beloved sister, he'd be more than little angry about it even if it was a while ago. I'm not even sure Jon would give up being Lord Commander of the Night's Watch let alone, marry his aunt and forswear his oaths. He can still have have a dragon and support Dany, but marrying is a but much.

I’m with you on both those counts…

I have a funny feeling that Dany's childbearing abilities will be mysteriously restored to her through their union...

That sounds like wishfull thinking to me. Of all authors, GRRM seems the least likely to end in a completely happy, illogical, miracles may happen ending.

I don't think she ever lost her child-bearing abilities...I think Mirri Maz Dur just told her that, basically to be mean. I have no basis for that, just a feeling I get.

I think it would be real interesting to see a dragon bring down that wall. Of course GRRM doesn't write his books based on what the tequila cat thinks would be interesting.

ha, I just wanted to say that I found that funny.

I've given this post a lot of thought and posted on a few other forums about it. There is still Maester Aemon up at the wall. He probably knows what happened to Rhaegal and Lyanna. I don't know if he had left the court to study to be a maester before all this happened.

On a sidenote, yes he had finished his Maester’s study, he was already on the wall by this point. He said he had three points when his vows were tested, that was the last point when he was old.

My prediction (and you know you care):

Howland Reed expels the Greyjoys, secures the Neck, so that Roose and his ******* get whats comin' to them via Stannis, who hears all about Jon's true identity from the swamp man himself, and dishes the Boltons a nice taste of crow. IF ONLY I could predict the fate of The Twins. I'd love for the Freys to get tag-team ravaged by Northmen and Rivermen, but it doesn't seem likely.

A few things are obvious about Jon's future: Jon hooks up with Bran to defend the wall in book 5, clearly. Jon's clearly a Targaryen, but he doesn't hook up with Dany. Dany dies at the hands of Strong Belwas, because he doesn't like it when people make fun of his scars and big gut.

Oh, SHUT UP. Stong Belwas is NOTHING! Hodor can take him on in an instant!

Just thought I’d add another little chuckle here… J

I would agree with you but the fella kills off central characters for laughs. There is very little predictability with these books.

Yup, which is why I love him so much.

Oh, and hi AryaUnderfoot, you’re cool! Welcome and have fun

N8Smitty, I'd like to come to a draw with you here. Perhaps you're right about the Fire being R'hllor, and the Ice being the Others. However, I don't really see the Fire God as good. To be quite honest, Melisandre really creeps me out. How many good works has she done? In the name of her god, she has aided in the murder of at least two people (still re-reading Storm of Swords, and can't remember if the tally has gone up yet or not). Let's not forget the nasty scene where she births that awful shadow creature beneath the castle. And if the Fire God really represented Good, why would his minions be so underhanded when defeating their enemies? It doesn't smell right at all. In fact, I believe Davos and Maester Cressen have (had?) the right of it in trying to off Melisandre. Yes, she's powerful, but might does not make right.

Touche, I’ll second you on the fact that Melisandre really freaks me out, she’s not a nice person. However, whebn I did realise that she had come to Westeros in order to fight the ‘enemy’ in the north, I started to have my doubts. At first I thought she was the standard power seeking, out to convert to the fire god type of person… I think really if anything this little conflict in trying to define Melisandre and her God as good or evil really highlights that GRRM is not trying to create the classic good vs evil. Or at least, he’s doing it his way which is more grey scale than black and white.

Also, does anyone else think that Theon is still alive or is it just me?

I’d completely forgotten about Theon. To be honest, the characters I’m most interested in are Bran and Arya.



I have a funny feeling Arya is going to join Dany at some point after she’s learnt a bit in Braavos, or perhaps that’s wishful thinking on my behalf. Arya has always been my fav, closely followed by Jon and dany, then Bran. The rest all come and go, sometimes I’m excited by one, later that changes…

 

[red_temple]

Re: SPOILERS theory on jon

nowhere in the books so far is there any mention of any serious misdeeds by Rhaegar...

The only one who derides him is Robert Baratheon (ok, and those around him), the question is WHY...I assume someone told him a 'decorated' version of what happened, knowing he wouldn'r stop to question the truth of the matter because it gave him an excuse to start a rebellion...

I've given this one a lot of thought. Why would Robert say that Lyanna was raped if she truly wasn't? Judging from Robert's actions and words in AGOT, I'm led to believe that Robert *believed* she was raped. Assuming she wasn't, then who would want Robert to believe that, knowing his temper and likeliness to take action? It seems to me that this is a crucial point in the story. Perhaps Littlefinger started the rumor? He certainly seems capable. If he did so, why?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Blue Mythril said I'm cool . Thanks! I liked your post, by the way- nicely done.

To continue the discussion on Melisandre, I'm all for her fighting the Others; after all, it needs to be done, and so far she's the only one in the realm, other than the Night's Watch, who is willing to address the problem. You'd think they'd pay attention to history more, sigh... However, she's also got a bit of the old Inquisition motif going on. She started off with burning the Seven and the Godswoods, but then she got into burning people, and that's just wrong. Hopefully in the battle with the Others, she'll lay the smack down on them, but then they'll just end up cancelling each other out. I don't think it's likely that she'll really be able to defeat them, though, unless she's good at making Dragonglass.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Re: SPOILERS theory on jon

I've given this one a lot of thought. Why would Robert say that Lyanna was raped if she truly wasn't? Judging from Robert's actions and words in AGOT, I'm led to believe that Robert *believed* she was raped. Assuming she wasn't, then who would want Robert to believe that, knowing his temper and likeliness to take action? It seems to me that this is a crucial point in the story. Perhaps Littlefinger started the rumor? He certainly seems capable. If he did so, why?

That's interesting!
I love the idea that Littlefinger was scheming even back then!
The only thing is that I'm pretty sure that Roberts Rebellion is at least 15 years before the start of AGoT and also that Littlefinger is (best guess) about 35?
So either he's one precocious dude or he probably had nothing to do with it.
I think that Jon Arryn was his sponsor (because of Lysa) to the council so I doubt he would have had access to Robert or Lyanna (mainly because he was warding in the Riverlands with Catelyn & Lysa) and so couldn't know of what was going on to that extent.

Makes me wish I was wrong though!

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

I can't seem to make my mind up about whether or not I think Rhaegar raped Lyanna. On the one hand, I really don't believe that Ned would taint his honor with a lie that big; after all, he was with Lyanna when she died, and I'm sure he knew the entire truth about it all. On the other hand, he did promise something to her, which means he may have made the entire rape story up to protect her child from Robert's revenge.

Lyanna being a Stark, though, I doubt she would have it in her to go off with Rhaegar, a married man, and have a love child when she was promised to Robert.

It really gets the wheels turning... I almost hope that GRRM holds off on this mystery until the end.

 

[hodor]

I can't seem to make my mind up about whether or not I think Rhaegar raped Lyanna. On the one hand, I really don't believe that Ned would taint his honor with a lie that big; after all, he was with Lyanna when she died, and I'm sure he knew the entire truth about it all. On the other hand, he did promise something to her, which means he may have made the entire rape story up to protect her child from Robert's revenge.

Lyanna being a Stark, though, I doubt she would have it in her to go off with Rhaegar, a married man, and have a love child when she was promised to Robert.

It really gets the wheels turning... I almost hope that GRRM holds off on this mystery until the end.

SPOILER...

You forget Robb my dear Arya. He did the very same thing. He was promised and then broke that to marry another and boy didn't that stir up a storm?

 

[Silk]

Re: SPOILERS theory on jon

I've given this one a lot of thought. Why would Robert say that Lyanna was raped if she truly wasn't? Judging from Robert's actions and words in AGOT, I'm led to believe that Robert *believed* she was raped.

I think he believed it because he wanted to believe it. After all he was a bit of an ego head and probabley couldn't even contemplate the thought of Lyanna running off with someone else because she wanted too...no she must have been kidknapped and raped there is simply no other explanation!

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Quiet you!

Jk. You're right, I did forget about Robb. However, Robb's little Jeyne Westerling wasn't a married woman when he chose to marry her despite being promised. Back atcha!

 

[hodor]

Matters not! The results were quite similar given the former were to be true. However, I believe it could have been any number of things that happened with Lyanna and Rhaegar. Despite this I count nothing on Ned's moral behavior to that of his children. They all act and behave differently than he would have.

 

[red_temple]

Re: SPOILERS theory on jon

I think he believed it because he wanted to believe it. After all he was a bit of an ego head and probabley couldn't even contemplate the thought of Lyanna running off with someone else because she wanted too...no she must have been kidknapped and raped there is simply no other explanation!

Precisely my point! Whoever started the rumor knew that Robert would easily believe it due to ego, etc. However, Winters_Sorrow pointed out that Littlefinger was probably too young to stir things up at the time. So then, provided you believe the "Lyanna not raped" theroy, my question remains: who stood to benefit from stirring up that kind of hornet's nest?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Matters not! The results were quite similar given the former were to be true. However, I believe it could have been any number of things that happened with Lyanna and Rhaegar. Despite this I count nothing on Ned's moral behavior to that of his children. They all act and behave differently than he would have.

I think his children try to emulate him, to some extent. That's why Arya always cringes after she's done something like the Weasel Soup incident- she thinks about her father and what he would think. The Stark honor is something that they're famous for, like the Lannisters always paying their debts.

Besides, I was comparing Lyanna's honor as a Stark to Robb.

Nevertheless, I like your posts, Hodor. (Side note here- how do you pronounce Hodor? My friend and I pronounce it "hoe-door," but my little brother persists in pronouncing "huh-DOOR" and someone else I know says "Hodder." Just curious.)

 

[erickad71]

Might I also add, I know its obvious, but a bed of blood involving a woman sounds to me to me like childbirth. So for me its obvious that Lyanna at least died in childbirth

I always thought that too...even before I had heard the rumuors/theories about Jon's birth parents.

That or he just sees what he wants to see.

I think that's what Robert was best at.

Howland Reed, perhaps the Dragons. Has anyone else noticed that both Dany and the Starks are linked to mythological animal things. I know it doesn’t mean anything significant, but I think that’s one of the reasons why I like their characters so much, they’re unique.

Personally, I hope Howland is the new POV.

ha, I just wanted to say that I found that funny.

I can hope, can't I?!

(Side note here- how do you pronounce Hodor? My friend and I pronounce it "hoe-door," but my little brother persists in pronouncing "huh-DOOR" and someone else I know says "Hodder." Just curious.)

I always say it like..."hoe-dur"...if that makes any sense.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

SPOILER...

You forget Robb my dear Arya. He did the very same thing. He was promised and then broke that to marry another and boy didn't that stir up a storm?

One more thing, Hodor, just because I'm the argumentative sort- Robb took Jeyne's maidenhood, and felt honor-bound to marry her. So I suppose that Ned and Robb's actions are indeed comparable; after all, Jon's parentage is still just speculation, and I'm sure that Robb did not want to follow in his father's footsteps by fathering a ******* of his own.

 

[shaggydog]

I don't think Lyanna was raped,there are hints of a really good connection between lyanna and Rhaegar, a rape it doesn't make sense at all. i like the notion of Littlefinger starting that rumour... maybe he was young, but no doubt he was precocious. Still, I dont see why would he have started that rumour... what he wins? he never does anything without a good reason.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Re: SPOILERS theory on jon

Precisely my point! Whoever started the rumor knew that Robert would easily believe it due to ego, etc. However, Winters_Sorrow pointed out that Littlefinger was probably too young to stir things up at the time. So then, provided you believe the "Lyanna not raped" theory, my question remains: who stood to benefit from stirring up that kind of hornet's nest?

There's been a lot of stuff on here about Robert thinking Lyanna was raped.
Is that actually what he thought? I know Rhaegar 'stole' Lyanna after she was promised to him, and she died. That doesn't mean she was raped.
However, maybe she fell in love with him and didn't want to go through with an arranged marriage? After all, let's face it, Robert was a man of fairly simplistic tastes and maybe Rhaegar (who by all accounts was a gentler man) appealed to her more.
I can't remember Robert actually saying she was raped...did he? (I haven't got a copy of AGoT to hand)

Anyway, as to who had a stake in ousting the Targaryen's by telling Robert this 'lie'..... the only one who I can think off (and this is pretty shaky!) is Varys. He's already demonstrated that he values the kingdom above the man and Aerys was a complete nutter so maybe he decided a change was needed. Not sure that idea holds water though..

Hell maybe it was Tywin! He'd just been humilated publicly by losing the King's Hand position and his heir was now forever "exiled" from his family

I've also been thinking about the rebellion a bit more, why did Tywin not just side with the King in the hope of being re-instated as King's Hand? Surely he had more to win than to lose by joining Aerys and helping crush (or at least prologue) the war. After all, his heir was pretty certain to die - either from Aerys if he joined the rebels or from the rebels defending the king? He wasn't to know that Jamie would forswear his oaths.

just a thought

 

[hodor]

One more thing, Hodor, just because I'm the argumentative sort- Robb took Jeyne's maidenhood, and felt honor-bound to marry her. So I suppose that Ned and Robb's actions are indeed comparable; after all, Jon's parentage is still just speculation, and I'm sure that Robb did not want to follow in his father's footsteps by fathering a ******* of his own.

Aye, but before he showed honor he was dishonorable. He was promised. Sansa was dishonorable when she lied to the king and queen about the confrontation between Arya and Joffrey. I personally believed Robb made a few unintelligents choices but then he was young. Sansa on the otherhand made her choices based on a dream, not on honor or family. I believe that it was just Ned himself that was the honorable man and he had begun trying to instill this in his children. It will be interesting to see how Arya and Sansa develope as I picture them developing in totally different directions.

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Re: SPOILERS theory on jon

Hell maybe it was Tywin! He'd just been humilated publicly by losing the King's Hand position and his heir was now forever "exiled" from his family

I've also been thinking about the rebellion a bit more, why did Tywin not just side with the King in the hope of being re-instated as King's Hand? Surely he had more to win than to lose by joining Aerys and helping crush (or at least prologue) the war. After all, his heir was pretty certain to die - either from Aerys if he joined the rebels or from the rebels defending the king? He wasn't to know that Jamie would forswear his oaths.

just a thought

Hmmm, Winters Sorrow, you may have a point here. Tywin may just have had a part in spreading that rumor. Looking back, it makes sense that he would not want to be reinstated as Aerys' Hand- history shows that the Hands were usually in power for brief periods of time, and a lot of them ended badly. It would make more sense for him to withdraw with Cersei, his other likely heir, after Jaime was pledged to the Kingsguard. If Lyanna died and Tywin spread the rumor of her kidnapping and rape, that would pretty much seal the deal for Robert to go to war. With Lyanna out of the way, Cersei could marry Robert and Tywin could have his grandchildren put on the throne...

However, in my mind the war and Lyanna's death are a jumble. Does anyone know the best place to read a chronological telling of all of the events that transpired before the story?

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Aye, but before he showed honor he was dishonorable. He was promised. Sansa was dishonorable when she lied to the king and queen about the confrontation between Arya and Joffrey. I personally believed Robb made a few unintelligents choices but then he was young. Sansa on the otherhand made her choices based on a dream, not on honor or family. I believe that it was just Ned himself that was the honorable man and he had begun trying to instill this in his children. It will be interesting to see how Arya and Sansa develope as I picture them developing in totally different directions.

I agree that it will be very interesting. I'm hoping that Sansa will grow her "wolf fangs" while under the tutelage of Littlefinger. It's apparent that Arya already has hers; she's bad---.

 

[hodor]

Aye, however, I wonder how she will grow under Littlefinger being it known he has always worked the strings without a family to consider. Will Sansa develope into the same sort of person? Will he teach her how to pull strings with complete disregard for her family? Will she grow into this? She has already proven that she can be this kind of person... a Cersei.